LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[LekkerTigers]

Why on earth have we let Meredith go? He's a promising 10 who's just led Loughborough to a BUCS title, with a kicking tee record of something mad, like 97%. Wilkinson has had no chances and Pollard will be away for a fair bit of next season. Are we going to persist with Shillcock at 10 for those times?

[Tiglon]

Agreed next seasons player recruitment and retention decisions are unfathomable.

How do we even know Edwards wanted to stay? Players are not commodities to be controlled, they're actual people who make their own decisions...

It's not so unfathomable that we offered him 3rd choice and he decided to take his chances elsewhere.

Bristol only have Randall, Marmion and Lennon on the books at 9 from what I can see. It isn't unfathomable that he has been offered 3rd choice ahead of Lennon, with a shot at replacing Marmion as 2nd choice in a year when his contract expires, if he impresses. He may also believe that Youngs isn't retiring any time soon so he's got a better chance at Bristol.

Maybe Bristol have offered him a very good package. Maybe Bristol is a more attractive place to live at 22 years old (it is). Maybe he fancies a change.

I am never quite sure about our thinking wrt 9s. We let Ben White go for example…of course he might have wanted to go, but seems a shame given the player he’s become

How would you convince a player of White's quality to stay and be 3rd choice on a salary comensurate with that status, given the other opportunities available to him? Or should we have let JvP go instead?

Genuine questions.

You can't have all the players, because:

A) salary cap
B) wanting to avoid going bankrupt
C) rugby players want to play rugby, and you can only start with 15 in each match

[Tiglon]

Why on earth have we let Meredith go? He's a promising 10 who's just led Loughborough to a BUCS title, with a kicking tee record of something mad, like 97%. Wilkinson has had no chances and Pollard will be away for a fair bit of next season. Are we going to persist with Shillcock at 10 for those times?

Does playing university rugby at age 20 mean you're destined to be a Premiership player? What about the other players in the Loughborough team, do they all have pro contracts with Premiership clubs?

I haven't seen him play, apart from that 10 minutes vs Bedford - how promising is he?

[johnthegriff]

I thought Edwards looked decent when playing for England Under 20's, I thought it a mistake when we signed Powell thereby denying Edwards the chance to play whilst JVP and Youngs were unavailable. Of course we don't know Edwards reaction to that or how he trained. There may be other reasons why the young man wants to be in Bristol where he is unlikely to be challenging for the first team. Meredith on the occasion I saw him play I thought he looked promising. I am hoping there will be further revelations about our squad for next season that will make everything clear.
Of course it could just be that the coaches have decided that we have better younger prospects than the ones just released.

[markharbtiger]

How do we even know Edwards wanted to stay? Players are not commodities to be controlled, they're actual people who make their own decisions...

It's not so unfathomable that we offered him 3rd choice and he decided to take his chances elsewhere.

Bristol only have Randall, Marmion and Lennon on the books at 9 from what I can see. It isn't unfathomable that he has been offered 3rd choice ahead of Lennon, with a shot at replacing Marmion as 2nd choice in a year when his contract expires, if he impresses. He may also believe that Youngs isn't retiring any time soon so he's got a better chance at Bristol.

Maybe Bristol have offered him a very good package. Maybe Bristol is a more attractive place to live at 22 years old (it is). Maybe he fancies a change.

I am never quite sure about our thinking wrt 9s. We let Ben White go for example…of course he might have wanted to go, but seems a shame given the player he’s become

How would you convince a player of White's quality to stay and be 3rd choice on a salary comensurate with that status, given the other opportunities available to him? Or should we have let JvP go instead?

Genuine questions.

You can't have all the players, because:

A) salary cap
B) wanting to avoid going bankrupt
C) rugby players want to play rugby, and you can only start with 15 in each match

Fair points. I am just frustrated when I see ex-Tigers do well elsewhere: I would prefer them to do well whilst at Welford Rd. TBH I think I would have preferred JVP and White competing as our top two 9s at the moment…although we’d have been in trouble if both were away for internationals!

[Tiglon]

I am never quite sure about our thinking wrt 9s. We let Ben White go for example…of course he might have wanted to go, but seems a shame given the player he’s become

How would you convince a player of White's quality to stay and be 3rd choice on a salary comensurate with that status, given the other opportunities available to him? Or should we have let JvP go instead?

Genuine questions.

You can't have all the players, because:

A) salary cap
B) wanting to avoid going bankrupt
C) rugby players want to play rugby, and you can only start with 15 in each match

Fair points. I am just frustrated when I see ex-Tigers do well elsewhere: I would prefer them to do well whilst at Welford Rd. TBH I think I would have preferred JVP and White competing as our top two 9s at the moment…although we’d have been in trouble if both were away for internationals!

I suppose there is an argument that we might now be better off with JvP and White than JvP and Youngs, but I don't think anyone would have argued that back when White left.

[RagingBull]

How would you convince a player of White's quality to stay and be 3rd choice on a salary comensurate with that status, given the other opportunities available to him? Or should we have let JvP go instead?

Genuine questions.

You can't have all the players, because:

A) salary cap
B) wanting to avoid going bankrupt
C) rugby players want to play rugby, and you can only start with 15 in each match

Fair points. I am just frustrated when I see ex-Tigers do well elsewhere: I would prefer them to do well whilst at Welford Rd. TBH I think I would have preferred JVP and White competing as our top two 9s at the moment…although we’d have been in trouble if both were away for internationals!

I suppose there is an argument that we might now be better off with JvP and White than JvP and Youngs, but I don't think anyone would have argued that back when White left.

And also would either have been happy behind the other?

[TigerFeetSteve]

How would you convince a player of White's quality to stay and be 3rd choice on a salary comensurate with that status, given the other opportunities available to him? Or should we have let JvP go instead?

Genuine questions.

You can't have all the players, because:

A) salary cap
B) wanting to avoid going bankrupt
C) rugby players want to play rugby, and you can only start with 15 in each match

Fair points. I am just frustrated when I see ex-Tigers do well elsewhere: I would prefer them to do well whilst at Welford Rd. TBH I think I would have preferred JVP and White competing as our top two 9s at the moment…although we’d have been in trouble if both were away for internationals!

I suppose there is an argument that we might now be better off with JvP and White than JvP and Youngs, but I don't think anyone would have argued that back when White left.

Yeah now we'd have two people competing for the 9 jersey if we had both, and a 3rd choice in the international periods... "just about" sustainable.

What about the 22/23 season in that 6 Nations before Youngs retired internationally. You think we could have afforded to have 3 scrum halves absent.

When White left it was a 12 or 13 team league... no breaks in the season for the 6N so we'd have to have minimum 3 scrum halves behind those 3. At least 1 a capable experienced head who is happy at being 4th choice, but good enough to start when needed, so would have to be a 3rd choice player anywhere else, may have to pay a premium to get him to sit at 4th choice rather than elsewhere.

So we'd have 3 international wages, one good quality club wage, plus two academy scrum halves.

Eesh that would have been expensive then...

What is a pity is that LI folded the season they did, had they gone under at this point we maybe could have attracted him back to rotate with JvP, but we weren't in the position to afford them all in the intervening season.

We were lucky to have in our title season a player coach in Wigglesworth, because he wasn't fussed not playing, but was an absolute gun choice when he played.

[johnthegriff]

White possibly would have stayed and competed with JVP for second choice scrum half slot but the signing of Wigglesworth meant he was looking at being 3rd or 4th choice. The player he is now shows the benefit of regular games and that is what is denied to most of our young players.once they reach the age of 19.
When we signed Owen Williams he was 3rd or 4th pick for Scarlets but playing regularly for Llanelli in the Principality League, maybe we as a club should have a similar relationship with another team.playing at a decent level. Basically a second team.in a different league.

[RagingBull]

Ben White played more games for us than he has Irish and Toulon combined.

he was given a chance, Tigers made the decision to back JVP. If not then JVP game time would’ve been less and potentially he might not have been the player he is now.

It’s sort of swings and roundabouts and unfortunately unlike of forwards backs tend to look for the starters shirt more sooner.
Unfortutely we are not Leinster there isn't only 3 other teams competing for domestic talent. If you have 2 talented youngsters competing for the same position there is a good chance that another club will come and offer him either more money, more game time or both.

[Stephen18]

Fair points. I am just frustrated when I see ex-Tigers do well elsewhere: I would prefer them to do well whilst at Welford Rd. TBH I think I would have preferred JVP and White competing as our top two 9s at the moment…although we’d have been in trouble if both were away for internationals!

I suppose there is an argument that we might now be better off with JvP and White than JvP and Youngs, but I don't think anyone would have argued that back when White left.

Yeah now we'd have two people competing for the 9 jersey if we had both, and a 3rd choice in the international periods... "just about" sustainable.

What about the 22/23 season in that 6 Nations before Youngs retired internationally. You think we could have afforded to have 3 scrum halves absent.

When White left it was a 12 or 13 team league... no breaks in the season for the 6N so we'd have to have minimum 3 scrum halves behind those 3. At least 1 a capable experienced head who is happy at being 4th choice, but good enough to start when needed, so would have to be a 3rd choice player anywhere else, may have to pay a premium to get him to sit at 4th choice rather than elsewhere.

So we'd have 3 international wages, one good quality club wage, plus two academy scrum halves.

Eesh that would have been expensive then...

What is a pity is that LI folded the season they did, had they gone under at this point we maybe could have attracted him back to rotate with JvP, but we weren't in the position to afford them all in the intervening season.

We were lucky to have in our title season a player coach in Wigglesworth, because he wasn't fussed not playing, but was an absolute gun choice when he played.

To let White leaves was the right thing to do at that time for both him and the club, he was 23/24 and good enough to start at other clubs and get paid as so, and we had Youngs who had another 4 years in him,JVP coming through and Wigglesworth on the way, it wasn’t worth us competing on wages at that point. That’s different to what happened with Edward’s as he 21 would be expecting to be a back up, Youngs with probably be in his final season before retiring. So next season he would have like been getting a fair amount of game time as he passed Youngs, realistically he should have been getting game time this season if it wasn’t for buying Powell. So now we’ll need a new back up as that will then only leave use JVP and Whitley. So we’ll end up like in another seasons time having to bring in another senior back up 9 or buy and up and coming on. So I don’t think game time will likely be the reason for Edward’s leaving as I don’t think Bristol will offer him anymore than we would have next season, so he either wants to live in Bristol or they’ve paid more, in which case I be annoyed if we couldn’t offer more due giving Whiteley a new contract.

[Not a jock]

So, the $64,000 question: how to give the youngsters (more) meaningful games? It's old hat but how about reforming the A league? North and South divisions to minimising travel etc costs. A teams to be a mixture of young talent, old timers returning to match fitness after injury, back up bench players needing a run out.

How's about including a couple of Championship teams if there's not going to be any promotion/relegation between Premiership and Championship?

Just wondering why the A league was discontinued.

[TigerFeetSteve]

I suppose there is an argument that we might now be better off with JvP and White than JvP and Youngs, but I don't think anyone would have argued that back when White left.

Yeah now we'd have two people competing for the 9 jersey if we had both, and a 3rd choice in the international periods... "just about" sustainable.

What about the 22/23 season in that 6 Nations before Youngs retired internationally. You think we could have afforded to have 3 scrum halves absent.

When White left it was a 12 or 13 team league... no breaks in the season for the 6N so we'd have to have minimum 3 scrum halves behind those 3. At least 1 a capable experienced head who is happy at being 4th choice, but good enough to start when needed, so would have to be a 3rd choice player anywhere else, may have to pay a premium to get him to sit at 4th choice rather than elsewhere.

So we'd have 3 international wages, one good quality club wage, plus two academy scrum halves.

Eesh that would have been expensive then...

What is a pity is that LI folded the season they did, had they gone under at this point we maybe could have attracted him back to rotate with JvP, but we weren't in the position to afford them all in the intervening season.

We were lucky to have in our title season a player coach in Wigglesworth, because he wasn't fussed not playing, but was an absolute gun choice when he played.

To let White leaves was the right thing to do at that time for both him and the club, he was 23/24 and good enough to start at other clubs and get paid as so, and we had Youngs who had another 4 years in him,JVP coming through and Wigglesworth on the way, it wasn’t worth us competing on wages at that point. That’s different to what happened with Edward’s as he 21 would be expecting to be a back up, Youngs with probably be in his final season before retiring. So next season he would have like been getting a fair amount of game time as he passed Youngs, realistically he should have been getting game time this season if it wasn’t for buying Powell. So now we’ll need a new back up as that will then only leave use JVP and Whitley. So we’ll end up like in another seasons time having to bring in another senior back up 9 or buy and up and coming on. So I don’t think game time will likely be the reason for Edward’s leaving as I don’t think Bristol will offer him anymore than we would have next season, so he either wants to live in Bristol or they’ve paid more, in which case I be annoyed if we couldn’t offer more due giving Whiteley a new contract.

I get that argument, but for me it's not just about Edwards and Whiteley.

We do not know what the package Bristol have promised salary vs us or where he sits in their SH depth chart. They have had a huge turnover at scrum half in the last season and a bit.

We also don't know why despite multiple opportunities, Borthwick, Wigglesworth & McKellar haven't given him to much game time.

Also we haven't seen much of Ollie Allan, yet and it may be about backing him as much as not backing Edwards. Especially if we're unsure on which horse to back we may have offered a slightly shorter contract to Edwards than Bristol because we're deciding on things like that.

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

Wasn't White also wanting to be close to his girlfriend who was based in the South?
He wasn't an International when he left, he was though for me during the dark days arguably our best 9.

At present Youngs is playing like someone who should retire, some of think Whiteley isn't good enough as a 3rd choice, if Ben decides he has had enough in the close season, Whiteley certainly isn't good enough as 2nd pick & with an International first choice you need a better standard 2nd choice as Shazam was. Is Edwards at that level...no, is there a chance he might be, yes certainly more than Whiteley.
Anytime its a 50/50 call an ex Tigers academy player should get preference.

[TigerFeetSteve]

With Meredith, look at his season.

Spent a fair bit of the BUCS season as the backup 10. Why is that, at a guess, he was training primarily with us and then not up to speed with Loughborough's attack. Once Tigers have an extended break so he trains more with Loughborough, he's suddenly their starting 10.

He may have said let me go I want to play a season managing games as a starting 10, developing game management at a lower division, then look to earn a place back at a prem team in future. Think one Ollie Chessum did something similar. Stepped out of the Tigers Academy, went to play week in week out at a team he trains with, came back to Tigers.