LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[Tigers86asw]

Tigers are searching for balance in a back line that has some deficiencies. We lack pace in general and play making ability in midfield. Shillcock deals with one of those but surely we play our best fullback at fullback. Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Next year with Parese at 13 the team should have more balance to it but Freddie is going to have to improve his pace and distribution to get back in the England team and that will only benefit tigers.

I would play Kata on the wing and Kelly at 12, Freddie at 15. With Parese giving you more pace at 13 that would have better balance to it.

[Stephen18]

I'd really like to see Steward tried at centre. He profiles as a completely different player to what many coaches are shifting to at 15. The top international fullbacks increasingly have kicking and passing games closer to what 10s offer. I think that Freddie's ability to make yards through contact can be utilised better from centre. I think his size would be more of an asset defensively from centre.

Whilst his high ball work can still be utilised from there with a smart kick chase plan. He could be an absolute weapon regularly chasing box kicks and bombs, rather than being in the backfield waiting for the returning kick.

I also think there has been an evolution of the best teams figuring out how to counter Freddie since his first international season. The better sides have increasingly avoided kicking to compete on Freddie, instead kick long trying to move him around the backfield and force him to return more kicks back to opposition. Neither of which are really his strength. The nature of being a bit slower than some fullbacks means he doesn't cover ground as quickly.

He has a massive boot on him but it isn't as refined as the many international fullbacks who have played a lot of 10. I think that boot could be used really smartly when exiting from the 22 to take pressure off the SH and FH. Similar to James Lowe for Ireland or Jordie Barrett for NZ. I'm not sure I see Freddie developing the variety and accuracy of kicking that many international 15s now have though.

The more I think about it, the more I think his best position could be centre.

With the side frequently looking short carriers before Wiese leaves, I can't help but wonder if Kata and/or Porter could be well utilised on the wing next season as well. Add that extra carrier who can come in tighter and make yards around the ruck when needed. A bit like Jack Nowell did for Chiefs and England at his best.

The problem with moving Freddie who during the summer was classed as one of the best fullbacks in the world. Is that we’d doing it to accommodate Pollard who traditionally play with to strike centres(deAllende/am/esterhuizen/kral) a ball playing fullback for South Africa (le roux) But realistically he’s only here for 1 more season so the back line needs to be getting set up for the future 10. Such as when we had Ford he has a ball playing centre (Kelly/du Perez/ Farrell/slade) and a strike running high ball chasing fullback(steward/roebuck) so before moving one of our best players we probably need to sort out who’s the long term 10 and how they’ll play.

[johnthegriff]

Peres having been subbed in recent matches for the Waratahs came off the bench in their latest game and added nothing, I don't see him as better than what we already have, I hope I am wrong.

[RagingBull]

I personally feel that's reading too much into things.
Pollard played perfectly fine last season with Kelly at 12. Just Kelly has had a stinker year so far. Pollard was just as good as Ford last season

SA are like that because that's how their teams generally like their backs, it's not really got much to do with Pollard
Case in point
Willemese
Warrick Gelant
Le Roux
Pat Lambie
Frans Steyn
Johan Goosen
Percy Montgomery

All players that either filled the SA 15 slot or was tried.

I feel this is more a McKeller thing than a Pollard thing. McKeller wants to attack the width a lot more earlier than Borthwick or Wigglesworth did. To attack the wing earlier you need a player maker further out to give the width an extra dynamic. It's why Furbank at 15 only worked once Borthwick got his finger out his bottom and decided to attack further out for a change.

[RagingBull]

Peres having been subbed in recent matches for the Waratahs came off the bench in their latest game and added nothing, I don't see him as better than what we already have, I hope I am wrong.

I mean all the Aussie fans had said he was their best back (And from what I saw he was). It's a pretty common thing in Super rugby once a player is off they tend to bench them to bring in someone who will be here next season.

And the game was already lost by the time he got on.

[ABClub]

It's not just SA playing that way though. Most international teams have shifted towards a fly-half quality playmaker and kicker at fullback. The top 8 in the rankings currently:

12.Aki
15.Keenan

12.de Allende
15.Willemse or le Roux

12.Jordie Barrett
15.Beauden Barrett or McKenzie

12.Danty
15.Ramos

12.Lawrence (Manu at the RWC)
15.Furbank (Steward at the RWC)

12.Tuipulotu
15.Kinghorn

12.Chocobares
15.Mallia

12.Menoncello
15.Pani (Tommy Allan prior to unavailability)

It's predominantly a unit at 12 who can get over the gain line and a fullback with a good enough kicking and passing game to cover 10.

Kicking strategies have developed to the point that fly-halves spend a ton of time in the back field to marshal the kick tennis anyway. From the above, all of Willemse, Beauden, DMcK, Ramos, Furbank, Kinghorn, Mallia and Allan have played 10 at the elite level. For many of them it was their primary position at one point.

Whilst le Roux was very much a playmaking fullback and Keenan regularly steps into first receiver for Ireland. Which only leaves two players. Steward and Italy's Pani, who can step into first receiver and has a good kicking game but is more in the fullback/wing mould rather than fullback/fly-half with his pace and footwork. Even then, Tommy Allan was the often second playmaker for Italy at 15 until he started his sabbatical.

It hardly seems a case of accommodating Pollard. It's just how the game is moving. Defences have got so good that multiple playmakers is becoming a necessity rather than a luxury. Fullback in many ways makes the most sense as the place to fit what are effectively second fly-halves.

[KiwiTig]

I get your Pollard comment …it sort of feels we should shape around him and although he’s not firing as we’d hope it seems the best plan otherwise

[Stephen18]

I personally feel that's reading too much into things.
Pollard played perfectly fine last season with Kelly at 12. Just Kelly has had a stinker year so far. Pollard was just as good as Ford last season

SA are like that because that's how their teams generally like their backs, it's not really got much to do with Pollard
Case in point
Willemese
Warrick Gelant
Le Roux
Pat Lambie
Frans Steyn
Johan Goosen
Percy Montgomery

All players that either filled the SA 15 slot or was tried.

I feel this is more a McKeller thing than a Pollard thing. McKeller wants to attack the width a lot more earlier than Borthwick or Wigglesworth did. To attack the wing earlier you need a player maker further out to give the width an extra dynamic. It's why Furbank at 15 only worked once Borthwick got his finger out his bottom and decided to attack further out for a change.

Pollard and Kelly only played 4 games together last year due to injury’s and we only won 2 of those. Now I don’t have a problem with pollard he clearly one of the best 10s in the world. I was just commenting on people say steward should move position, but we do have to look long term and pollards as good as he can be is only likely to be here 1 more season do you build a team around him for him to then leave at the expense of 2 22 year old who could be at the club for the next decade. Hopefully we’re already looking for our long term 10 to build around as Atkinson didn’t work out, but if you build a team around pollard you’ve got to find a 10 take over that team and play the same way. Looking at people’s comments and the success of South Africa Ireland and Saracens maybe that the right way to go and that’s how the games going, then Freddie needs to learn to become a playmaking 15, but I personally think he’s wasted on the wing and don’t think he’ll make a top leave centre.

[Leicestertinytiger]

Personally don’t get this move Steward to centre idea.

Agree with everything people have said about the shift on a 15 to a secondary playmaker.

Steward isn’t sat with his head in the sand. SB will have said why Furbank came into the 15. Steward used to play 10, so no doubt he’ll work on that park of his game in the offseason and come back as someone who can play the role more.

From a Tigers point of view, we look much better with Shilcock at 15 in the interim. Steward looks fine on the wing too for the rest of the season.

[johnthegriff]

I really don't get the thinking, the scores against Leinster and the performance in the win against Newcastle do not suggest to me that we look so much better with Steward on the wing and Shilcock playing a more advanced role at fullback. To be honest I am not sure the results for England with Furbank at 15 prove that a playmaker fullback is a good idea without the defensive talent to do the basic job.

[duffers]

I mean all the Aussie fans had said he was their best back (And from what I saw he was). It's a pretty common thing in Super rugby once a player is off they tend to bench them to bring in someone who will be here next season.

And the game was already lost by the time he got on.

When you say all the Aussie fans.. where did you hear this?

[sam16111986]

I don't get the downer on a player who's not even joined yet.

This was from a quick Google search, from a couple of weeks back. Quick feet, powerful enough to get metres after contact, good hands for the offload as well.

https://youtu.be/lyfUHmMq5qA?si=EUCZRPx-QQ3aKbjn

Bits from last season. Note the way he keeps the ball alive after being tackled which is something we aren't that good at.

https://youtu.be/acwAPDlM0iU?si=fZAEcCG2ZpsJryuq

[johnthegriff]

I don't intend to have a downer on a player that has not yet joined us, how he performs for us is the only relevant matter. I do think that we should encourage the development of English rugby and for that reason believe that foreign players should only be signed if they are clearly better than what we have as they do tend to be more expensive. Currently on our books we have Kelly and Porter, we are letting Cokanasiga go without really giving him a chance to shine, we have a couple of England Under 20's that are not getting opportunities. I sincerely hope Peres is a brilliant signing that will enhance our team but having watched four Waratahs games since his signing was announced I can only say what I have seen. I freely admit I could be wrong in my opinion, I am not saying he is not a good player I am just not convinced he is better than what we have.

[kk20gb30]

I really don't get the thinking, the scores against Leinster and the performance in the win against Newcastle do not suggest to me that we look so much better with Steward on the wing and Shilcock playing a more advanced role at fullback. To be honest I am not sure the results for England with Furbank at 15 prove that a playmaker fullback is a good idea without the defensive talent to do the basic job.

Agree

[Rugbygramps]

It makes me smile when someone says they aren’t being down on a new signing when they clearly are, especially as that player is currently playing in a poor side, and as has been mentioned they won’t play him if there are other options.
Same with our new prop Rob Evans becomes available so all,of a sudden we’ve signed the wrong welsh prop.
What is wrong with trust our coaches and recruitment team