LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - Crocodile McKeller: Men at Work

[sk 88]

I just don’t understand this fascination with player’s training and coached to be high level international players in a certain position and then looking to move them. IMO I have seen very little from Martin, who out played 2 South African locks in a semi final, to indicate he would make an 8, just as I’m seen nothing from Steward to suggest he would make a 12

Similarly I don't get people wanting to lock players into positional boxes. I want as many of the best players on the field as possible, based on the people we currently employ next year that would mean Henderson, Chessum, Martin, Reffell, Liebenberg all being on the field at the same time. So one of them will have the wear number 8!

So you want our scrum back 5 to be made up of 3 locks a 6 and a 7. Certainly an interesting opinion not one I share.
As I’m sure you know this isn’t junior rugby where players can just swap positions there is a hell of a lot more to it

George Martin has played more in the backrow than the second row. Ollie Chessum's started in the backrow this season. Bizarre to say they can't play there any more.

[sk 88]

I'm going to get ripped apart I feel BUT Porter is a better winger or 12 than outside Centre.

IDK I'm a big fan of Porter but he just doesn't seem to have the rugby IQ for 13. For the records I want to keep Porter but I just feel that he might be better served as a starting winger (IMO played his best rugby on the wing or at 12)
Izaia Perese gives us a similar style runner to Kata but at 13, which would allow us to use Kelly at 12 more as well.
Also a slight worry that Kelly might well be having Ireland in his ear if Borthwick doesn't pick him.

Again I would like to keep Porter just I wouldn't be upset with signing another centre, guess depends on the cap situation.
Kelly and Scott are quite similar players
Kata and Perese are quite similar players
Porter as a utility
5 senior centres who give us a good mix and depth in a key area (one often neglected by us in recent history)

Cabous Eloff seems to be quite rated by aussies as well as the SA'ss who saw him come up the system with them. Plays LH and TH aswell.

Also granted this is Fissler and he will be paid to get clicks so keep that in mind with all his rumours. A lot will be 2+2 = 5

I too like Porter as a 12, I think its his best position.

I like him as a wing & like having versatile players, it makes covering injuries within the match squad much easier, and means you can use fewer players increasing familiarity.

[Rugbygramps]

Similarly I don't get people wanting to lock players into positional boxes. I want as many of the best players on the field as possible, based on the people we currently employ next year that would mean Henderson, Chessum, Martin, Reffell, Liebenberg all being on the field at the same time. So one of them will have the wear number 8!

So you want our scrum back 5 to be made up of 3 locks a 6 and a 7. Certainly an interesting opinion not one I share.
As I’m sure you know this isn’t junior rugby where players can just swap positions there is a hell of a lot more to it

George Martin has played more in the backrow than the second row. Ollie Chessum's started in the backrow this season. Bizarre to say they can't play there any more.

As fill ins you’re saying that one of those players should play 8 where all 5 of them have better positions. You are also ignoring impact off the bench. Come across the phrase 23 man game , such as Martin coming on at lock replacing Chessum who moves to 6, now where has that happened recently

[sk 88]

So Chessum can play 6 now.

Great to see we're agreeing.

[Rugbygramps]

So Chessum can play 6 now.

Great to see we're agreeing.

If it wasn’t sad it would be funny

[johnthegriff]

It has always been quite common for blind side flanker to also play 8, even at international level. It is not unusual for locks to play at 6, not all can do it but many can, Martin is certainly one who could make the change, whether he should is a different matter. Certainly a pack with Montoya, Chessum, Henderson, Liebenberg, Martin and Reffell would be powerful and mobile.

[ABClub]

With fewer Prem fixtures and tighter budgets I think a smaller squad, quality over quantity and taking maximum advantage of versatility is absolutely the way to go.

I've never understood versatility becoming a dirty word in rugby in recent years. Rugby has always had players who cover multiple positions. From the '03 England squad alone. Cozza covering lock, 6 and 8. Dallagio, Hill and Worsley played across the back row for England. Lewsey and Robinson played everywhere from 11-15. Catt did that plus FH.

It's a sport that lends itself to it. Lock and back row have obvious cross overs. Same with fullback and wing. Outside centre and wing. In the modern game even FH and fullback given that 10s spend so much time in the backfield for kick tennis now. It would be insanity not to utilise that.

The Boks have just won the RWC whilst utilising versatile players to the max.

The back to back Champions Cup holders often play a lock at 6. Ultan Dillane has played blindside more than second row for them.

It's utterly bizarre to me that some fans more recently have decided that rugby is so specialised that locks shouldn't be playing blindside.

[LE18]

It has always been quite common for blind side flanker to also play 8, even at international level. It is not unusual for locks to play at 6, not all can do it but many can, Martin is certainly one who could make the change, whether he should is a different matter. Certainly a pack with Montoya, Chessum, Henderson, Liebenberg, Martin and Reffell would be powerful and mobile.

I really do feel we have to "free up" Martin to make his devastating tackling, he is too tied in at lock and Chessum should remain at lock. To my mind Martin could make and excellect replacement for Weise, we have enough locks to cover in future. We need someone with a bit of bulk, carrying ability and devastating tacklingand line out ability in that position, he has it.

[Scott1]

“ It's utterly bizarre to me that some fans more recently have decided that rugby is so specialised that locks shouldn't be playing blindside.”
Who has said that? Locks who can play blindside and vice versa is nothing new or revolutionary at all

[Ian Cant]

Like some others I too thought Martin could be a very good. Player at 8 but then was privy to a chat between our props who said the “ scrum was a different beast with George ‘s power at lock!”
Our 3 best locks areChessum, Martin and Wells. Wells’ defensive work and line out jumping is underrated!

[TigerFeetSteve]

Like some others I too thought Martin could be a very good. Player at 8 but then was privy to a chat between our props who said the “ scrum was a different beast with George ‘s power at lock!”
Our 3 best locks areChessum, Martin and Wells. Wells’ defensive work and line out jumping is underrated!

Henderson was till his injury one of our best players this season, I think he's surpassed Wells IMO.

[Rugbygramps]

With fewer Prem fixtures and tighter budgets I think a smaller squad, quality over quantity and taking maximum advantage of versatility is absolutely the way to go.

I've never understood versatility becoming a dirty word in rugby in recent years. Rugby has always had players who cover multiple positions. From the '03 England squad alone. Cozza covering lock, 6 and 8. Dallagio, Hill and Worsley played across the back row for England. Lewsey and Robinson played everywhere from 11-15. Catt did that plus FH.

It's a sport that lends itself to it. Lock and back row have obvious cross overs. Same with fullback and wing. Outside centre and wing. In the modern game even FH and fullback given that 10s spend so much time in the backfield for kick tennis now. It would be insanity not to utilise that.

The Boks have just won the RWC whilst utilising versatile players to the max.

The back to back Champions Cup holders often play a lock at 6. Ultan Dillane has played blindside more than second row for them.

It's utterly bizarre to me that some fans more recently have decided that rugby is so specialised that locks shouldn't be playing blindside.

As the original conversation was about him moving to 8 you maybe need to do a bit a re step there.
The points about smaller squad sizes and covering more than one position are correct and both Chessum and Martin can both cover 6 at premiership level, above that I’m not convinced.
As for his tackling and running with the ball his play at lock both sides of the ball and especially as 2nd ball carrier

[TigerFeetSteve]

With a number of other clubs announcing some signings in this period, I wonder if we'll hear anything.

Just with today being season ticket price announcement, wonder if price increases may be enticed/smoothed over with a few re-signings at least?

[ay2oh]

With a number of other clubs announcing some signings in this period, I wonder if we'll hear anything.

Just with today being season ticket price announcement, wonder if price increases may be enticed/smoothed over with a few re-signings at least?

Would hope so including a new prop , no 8 and big ball carrying centre/winger.

[sam16111986]

Liebenberg has been tried at 8 and he lacks the dynamism. He's an out and out 6 in my opinion, perfectly suited to that role. Please leave him there!

I disagree. I think Liebenburg has been decent at 8 for us. Before this season he's generally been the back up option behind first Taufua and then Weise. With the right 6 he could definitely drop back into that role for us but it would need to be a big physical 6.

That's not entirely true.

Last season Hanro played the first 4 games at 8. The next 4 where Wiese was missing we had Cracknell at 8. Hanro played one more game at 8 that season, when Cracknell was injured.

The season before, again, he was cover at 8 for the first 4 matches, then Van Staden, then Martin and Chessum (both when we had most of the back row injured including Hanro), then finally Sean Jansen was preferred to Hanro at 8.

Before that, the likes of Guy Thompson and Kalamafoni were played at 8 ahead of Hanro.

I'm not saying Hanro has been poor at 8, he is decent, but he's exceptional at 6 so I'd rather see him stay there.

So you agree as a back up 8 Liebenburg has been decent for us.

As I said we couldn't use him as a like for like Weise replacement but if we were to introduce a big number 6 like say Dave Ewers ,who is rumoured to be leaving Ulster, then across the two of them you could make it work. The big 6 taking on Weise's hard carrying work whilst Liebenburg is athletic enough to come off the base of the scrum and continue being a regular carrier for us around the park (which he does already).

I'm not saying we should sign Dave Ewers it was just an example. We could use a ball carrying lock there, potentially Martin though I think his work at scrum time could be valuable to our set piece. We could potentially replace Carter with a big tough 6/lock type.