2024 Six Nations Chat

[ABClub]

Personally I think there's a few players in this England squad who haven't produced the good's in a long time and may be worth moving on (Care, Daly, Slade) or even worse who have never produced the goods and don't deserve another chance (Stuart)

Next round I'd like to see a team something like

1. Marler
2. George
3. Cole
4. Chessum
5. Itoje
6. Roots
7. Underhill
8. Earl
9. Spencer
10. Smith
11. Feyi-Waboso
12. Lawrence
13. Freeman
14. Muir
15. Steward

16. Dan
17. Genge
18. Heyes
19. Martin
20. Cunningham-South
21. Randall
22. Ford
23. Furbank

Struggling to get over the gain line off 9 felt like part of the issue. I'd stack the second and back row with carriers given there are players who can do that in the 23 already. Basically start with the 4-8 they finished with today. Then adjust the bench accordingly. CCS may not do 80 minutes at international level yet. Having someone such as Barbeary or Pearson on the bench makes subbing him for another carrier possible if required though.

1.Marler 2.George 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Martin 6.Chessum 7.Earl 8.CCS
9.Spencer 10.Smith 11.IFW 12.Lawrence 13.Daly 14.Freeman 15.Steward

16.Dan 17.Genge 18.Heyes 19.Underhill 20.Barbeary 21.Randall 22.Ford 23.Manu

SH is a big issue with Mitchell, JvP and Quirke injured. They are the best 3 SH talents in the country by a distance. Plus Mitchell has been really good for England since his recall to be fair.

[Tigers86asw]

I think Borthwick trying to evolve the teams style of play whilst not having a settled side is a very tough. Problem is they appear to have no identity when we have the ball. That’s why I was so disappointed with Ford. There is very little attacking g structure and this compounds the chronic lack of gainline winners across the team.

Genge- I agree- he is nowhere near what he was at Tigers. So many of England selection problems come from deficits in 3 key areas; prop, number 8 and centre. Befause they don’t have a proper number 8.( I think Earl is excellent but he’s not an 8) and no heft in the back line it means they won’t pick Marler and Cole together which would allow them some scrum dominance. They need another ball carrying prop so have to compromise. It’s the same in the back line- we struggle to attack so pick a second play maker at 15, that pushes Steward out of the team. You are compounding problems.

I would like Borthwick to stick to his guns mostly against Ireland. He needs to avoid changing too many things at once. Daly doesn’t offer anything as far as I can tell. F-W looks far more threatening. Martin adds much needed grunt. I would go for Spencer at scrum half. He would balance the exit strategy and has far more pace than Care.

I don’t see how Borthwick can drop Lawrence after one game when he is meant to be so crucial moving forwards. Who else is going to come in? Manu? He’s not a long term solution.

I would not drop Ford despite him being poor today.

Tactically England need to have a far better sense of identity. We ran the ball more when level but when we were behind we kicked the hell out of it. Doesn’t add up.

[LessThanSte]

I get the distinct impression that on the training paddock we are the best team in the world. Perfect line out, every set or called move perfect, blitz defence up in your face every time.

But we are devoid, in a good number of players, a rugby brain. Ronnie O'Sullivan was talking the other day about a player without a snooker brain, it's the same here - very fast, can run all the moves, but can they do the right thing at the right time, no.

Oh to have a Finn Russell. England could've won that match, they weren't awful but the lack of a rugby brain and the associated inability to do the right thing (e.g. stop kicking) combined with the handling errors killed them. Scotland took advantage, ruthlessly, and deserved the win.

[westwinds31]

There’s no patience sadly, so every loss gets tougher for Borthwick, regardless of the mitigating factors - injuries, new caps, continuity etc. Comparing to Ireland is just madness, they’ve got a settled sided who all know their roles for club and country. Lawrence was on form before the 6 Nations, but this is his first game back so was going to be rusty. Dropping him is crazy, give him a run of games. That side kpj picked and bench looks good, but the backline would need time to click, it wouldn’t happen overnight and the coaches would get slated, which is why I wouldn’t take the job in a million years.

[Tiglon]

The difference between the two teams was a couple of poor passes by England, why rip everything up?

Lawrence is pretty clearly the best option at 12 in my opinion, even though he didn't have a good one today - although Ford's passing to him was not entirely helpful.

England's biggest problem for me seems to be consistency of selection, hence the defensive mistakes. The difficulty is that so much of it is caused by injury.

On a side note, did England take the 3 too often today? Scotland scored 4 or 5 per visit to the 22, so taking a 3 instead of entering the 22 just isn't likely to win you the game. You have to be more ambitious against a team thar takes their chances.

Agree with comments around Finn Russell and rugby intelligence. England were battering Scotland for 20 minutes, but Scotland figured it out. When the tables were turned, England couldn't find any answers and looked ineffective.

[mol2]

We have quality players but weakness in key areas.
A blitz defence requires discipline and all players to make tackles.
Ford no longer runs with the ball. A lightweight Farrell. Age and injuries taken their toll. His passing tried to be fast but inaccurate.
Add Daly and Slade into that mix you have 3 backs diminish the effectiveness of a blitz. They have tried to mitigate this by using Slade as the one who rushes out to get in the way of the quick wide ball but that exposes Daly out wide. Not a great tackler and not a winger so turns in too readily.
The FH channel becomes tricky to defend when one player has been tasked with rushing out, spreading the quick defenders leaving gaps like Hugh Jones ran through yesterday.

[Leicestertinytiger]

Another 2 week break before Ireland at home. In a quandary over what SB does now for the last 2 games. Apparently before the tournament, he wanted Marcus Smith, Lawrence, Slade and Furbank in the backline before injuries got in the way. So does he stick with an unchanged 23, bar Marcus Smith coming in, stick to his guns and then review things after the whole tournament.

Or does he change things up massively. Beef up the pack, Martin in the second row, Roots Earl Barbeary backrow. Tell the forwards to lay down a marker. IFW on the wing, give him 2 full games to see what he can do. I like the idea of Marcus starting with Fin on the bench.

[Robespierre]

Jeeez, that was an embarrassing and inept England performance. Who was there for on field leadership and to shake up the team at half time when the writing was clearly on the wall? Should George be captain ? I remain convinced that the balance of the back row is completely wrong. Earl, a fine player he is, is not a Test 8 and should be at 7. Mercer should be 8 and maybe Cunningham South at 6? Chessum’s been disappointing and should be replaced by Martin (but when he spilled the ball at a restart, I was on my feet and screaming at the telly !). If I were Borthwick, I’d be making an early appointment at the job centre cos he surely won’t be in charge at the end of the 6N after two more defeats !

[Tiglon]

Jeeez, that was an embarrassing and inept England performance. Who was there for on field leadership and to shake up the team at half time when the writing was clearly on the wall? Should George be captain ? I remain convinced that the balance of the back row is completely wrong. Earl, a fine player he is, is not a Test 8 and should be at 7. Mercer should be 8 and maybe Cunningham South at 6? Chessum’s been disappointing and should be replaced by Martin (but when he spilled the ball at a restart, I was on my feet and screaming at the telly !). If I were Borthwick, I’d be making an early appointment at the job centre cos he surely won’t be in charge at the end of the 6N after two more defeats !

If Borthwick gets sacked after this 6N, then English rugby has no one to blame but itself. It's like we want our teams to fail. Never happier than when shouting "sack the boss", as if that is the perpetual solution to something.

He (or, more accurately, his team) won 9 out of the last 10 before yesterday.

Who gives up on a rebuild because it isn't instantly perfect?

[Leicestertinytiger]

Jeeez, that was an embarrassing and inept England performance. Who was there for on field leadership and to shake up the team at half time when the writing was clearly on the wall? Should George be captain ? I remain convinced that the balance of the back row is completely wrong. Earl, a fine player he is, is not a Test 8 and should be at 7. Mercer should be 8 and maybe Cunningham South at 6? Chessum’s been disappointing and should be replaced by Martin (but when he spilled the ball at a restart, I was on my feet and screaming at the telly !). If I were Borthwick, I’d be making an early appointment at the job centre cos he surely won’t be in charge at the end of the 6N after two more defeats !

If Borthwick gets sacked after this 6N, then English rugby has no one to blame but itself. It's like we want our teams to fail. Never happier than when shouting "sack the boss", as if that is the perpetual solution to something.

He (or, more accurately, his team) won 9 out of the last 10 before yesterday.

Who gives up on a rebuild because it isn't instantly perfect?

Yeah if you go purely by stats SB is doing alright. But if you watch the team play, bar a good performance against SA, we’ve been nothing but average. With an inability to attack past a few phases and I think he’s also made poor selections.

Take last six nations. OHC plays first two games then is dropped. Ben Curry starting over Willis. Ludlam a mainstay and then dropped. Ben Earl not even making the 23. He never builds any consistency. Something you need to be successful. When we went on that winning streak under Eddie and were successful in 2019, we had a settled team.

Who’s our best backrow? Don’t know. Who’s our best centre partnership. Don’t know. Who’s our best back three. Also don’t know.

[Robespierre]

Jeeez, that was an embarrassing and inept England performance. Who was there for on field leadership and to shake up the team at half time when the writing was clearly on the wall? Should George be captain ? I remain convinced that the balance of the back row is completely wrong. Earl, a fine player he is, is not a Test 8 and should be at 7. Mercer should be 8 and maybe Cunningham South at 6? Chessum’s been disappointing and should be replaced by Martin (but when he spilled the ball at a restart, I was on my feet and screaming at the telly !). If I were Borthwick, I’d be making an early appointment at the job centre cos he surely won’t be in charge at the end of the 6N after two more defeats !

If Borthwick gets sacked after this 6N, then English rugby has no one to blame but itself. It's like we want our teams to fail. Never happier than when shouting "sack the boss", as if that is the perpetual solution to something.

He (or, more accurately, his team) won 9 out of the last 10 before yesterday.

Who gives up on a rebuild because it isn't instantly perfect?

Rebuilding is one thing, but on the evidence of the three games so far, there’s precious little to show, and the game plan seems to be non existent - except hoof and hope. I, for one, am fed up with it.

[mol2]

I wouldn’t agree Chessum has been disappointing. Made a lot of tackles, not caught out in defence and his line out work has been all you might expect. More of an impact with ball in hand than the flankers. Likewise Itoje.

Genge was disappointing. Stewart wasn’t disappointing because that reflected my expectations.

The back row is imbalanced. I’m not sure Martin is the solution at 6. That’s the problem - 3 quality locks but is it wise to move one to the back row? Bring in Bearbury at 8 and move Earl to 7.

Three changes for me in the backs are essential. Smith (F) for Ford and IFW for Daly and Spencer for Care.

Much as I rate Freddie, I don’t think his return is essential. Furbank is decent under the high ball and more of an attacking threat. Freddie is the best in world rugby under the high ball but is he quick enough off the mark in defence?

[Leicestertinytiger]

Agree backrow is unbalanced. But I actually think Roots could be the sort of no.6 England need. In that SA mould what Ewers used to be for Exeter, a more physical carrier where we can look to dominate opposition packs.

Best no.7 is being played out of position. Get him at openside and then literally play any of our no.8s in the correct position.

Also would like to see Martin / Chessum start together with Itoje off the bench.

[Tiglon]

Jeeez, that was an embarrassing and inept England performance. Who was there for on field leadership and to shake up the team at half time when the writing was clearly on the wall? Should George be captain ? I remain convinced that the balance of the back row is completely wrong. Earl, a fine player he is, is not a Test 8 and should be at 7. Mercer should be 8 and maybe Cunningham South at 6? Chessum’s been disappointing and should be replaced by Martin (but when he spilled the ball at a restart, I was on my feet and screaming at the telly !). If I were Borthwick, I’d be making an early appointment at the job centre cos he surely won’t be in charge at the end of the 6N after two more defeats !

If Borthwick gets sacked after this 6N, then English rugby has no one to blame but itself. It's like we want our teams to fail. Never happier than when shouting "sack the boss", as if that is the perpetual solution to something.

He (or, more accurately, his team) won 9 out of the last 10 before yesterday.

Who gives up on a rebuild because it isn't instantly perfect?

Yeah if you go purely by stats SB is doing alright. But if you watch the team play, bar a good performance against SA, we’ve been nothing but average. With an inability to attack past a few phases and I think he’s also made poor selections.

Take last six nations. OHC plays first two games then is dropped. Ben Curry starting over Willis. Ludlam a mainstay and then dropped. Ben Earl not even making the 23. He never builds any consistency. Something you need to be successful. When we went on that winning streak under Eddie and were successful in 2019, we had a settled team.

Who’s our best backrow? Don’t know. Who’s our best centre partnership. Don’t know. Who’s our best back three. Also don’t know.

I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to dismiss winning as a meaningless stat. I understand when I bang on about kick metres etc, but winning or losing? Surely that matters.

I agree regarding consistency. Playing devils advocate though, the first year of Borthwick was a very short term job, everything was about the World Cup - it's inevitable now that new things will be tried. We went through a lot of poor results and varied selections in our first year with Borthwick at Tigers, why are we surprised that it's the same with him at England?

We've been average for a top tier international side, but do we think we have had the players to be better than that? Yesterday we made 25 handling errors - is that Borthwick's fault? Sure, he's the head coach so he has to take responsibility for the results, but when you're talking about performances then it's the players as well.

I guarantee if the team had been playing well but losing, the call would be that "it's results that matter".

Personally, my main priority would be consistency, and that has to start with the head coach role - how does sacking the boss create consistency? I don't think any of us would doubt he has a very well thought through long term plan, whether it works remains to be seen, but I don't see a better option.

[Tiglon]

Jeeez, that was an embarrassing and inept England performance. Who was there for on field leadership and to shake up the team at half time when the writing was clearly on the wall? Should George be captain ? I remain convinced that the balance of the back row is completely wrong. Earl, a fine player he is, is not a Test 8 and should be at 7. Mercer should be 8 and maybe Cunningham South at 6? Chessum’s been disappointing and should be replaced by Martin (but when he spilled the ball at a restart, I was on my feet and screaming at the telly !). If I were Borthwick, I’d be making an early appointment at the job centre cos he surely won’t be in charge at the end of the 6N after two more defeats !

If Borthwick gets sacked after this 6N, then English rugby has no one to blame but itself. It's like we want our teams to fail. Never happier than when shouting "sack the boss", as if that is the perpetual solution to something.

He (or, more accurately, his team) won 9 out of the last 10 before yesterday.

Who gives up on a rebuild because it isn't instantly perfect?

Rebuilding is one thing, but on the evidence of the three games so far, there’s precious little to show, and the game plan seems to be non existent - except hoof and hope. I, for one, am fed up with it.

Fair enough. But what are your expectations? Be like Ireland after 12 months?

The kicking thing is a lazy criticism that gets trotted out every time a team loses. We kicked LESS than Scotland, and less than Wales.

We've kicked more penalty goals than anyone else, which suggests we're doing that too much - but that seems to be what most fans want anyway... "take the points".

We have by far the lowest conversion success rate so far - only 2 points for a conversion, but it's fine margins at this level.

We have the second most attacking entries to the 22, just 1 behind Ireland. Isn't that a sign that we're doing something right? Getting into good positions. That's not from hoof and hope.

We've made the second most linebreaks so far, behind Ireland. But we have no attacking shape or ideas? Are you sure?

Our tackle success rate is the second lowest so far - maybe this is the actual problem? Brand new defensive coach and structure, some errors have been made - same as Leinster this season.

Our arrivals at attacking rucks is pretty low, and our ruck speed is too - we have the highest % of rucks over 6 seconds. If the ball is in the ruck for more than 6 seconds, there's really no point trying to attack. Maybe that's more of a problem than how often we kick.

Our scrum win % is down in the 60's.

Elliott Daly has the joint second highest number of linebreaks, and joint third highest number of assists, in the tournament so far - but all I read on here is that he's rubbish and shouldn't be anywhere near the England team.

Underhill has the second most breakdown steals, but he's useless too.

Only 2 England players in the top 27 for ruck clearouts. Further proof that quickly and successfully securing ruck ball is perhaps our biggest issue.

There are plenty of things to work on, but quantity of kicks isn't one of them.

But, yeah, stats are stupid and we kick too much. OK.