Trailfinders a sad indictment of rugby

[GB72]

The requirement for a 10,001 capacity stadium is the one criteria I feel lacks justification.

It's reasonable to demand that promotes clubs have good quality playing facilities, space for the media and the right governance. But why mandate that they must make a huge infrastructure investment to cater for a spectator demand that they can't forecast will be there? It seems to run counter to the 'good governance' criteria.

I may be totally wrong but I recall reading that certain health and safety regulations kick in at capacities over 10000 and that was one argument. As I said, could be wrong and it would not be beyond the realms for the RFU to write their own criteria to match that for larger capacity stadiums.

[BengalTiger]

The requirement for a 10,001 capacity stadium is the one criteria I feel lacks justification.

It's reasonable to demand that promotes clubs have good quality playing facilities, space for the media and the right governance. But why mandate that they must make a huge infrastructure investment to cater for a spectator demand that they can't forecast will be there? It seems to run counter to the 'good governance' criteria.

10,001 does have some basis in reason, firstly teams that have large travelling supporters will be disadvantaged if opposition teams can only cater for 5K.
Secondly, and more importantly, it is an income stream, 10K bums on seats is a good regular income, add on extras like catering and bars, and you move the club away from being solely reliant on sugar daddy owners, as the case of poor Cecil Ducworth has shown at Worc's, it does not matter how committed and passionate an owner is once they pass the whole edifice can rapidly fall apart, I know there was governance bordering on the criminal by the subsequent owners but the case still stands, relying on one person's bank balance is not sustainable.
You cannot grow your fan base if you cannot accommodate new fans and moving every couple of years is a sure way to lose what little support you have as shown by Wasps.

[Hot_Charlie]

What did Exeter do right? They got right to the top of Europe from that level.
Perhaps Ealing had no history?

shrewd signings and an incredible crop of players coming through at the same time

Good timing - at the time when the Championship benefitted from regular TV coverage.

Investment from their owner, developing Sandy Park into a fit for purpose ground.

Investment in the rugby community, taking a popular local amateur club, building up an organic fan base which has now allowed them to expand Sandy Park further.

Ealing want all the glory but without putting in the off-pitch groundwork. It's been patently obvious for several years.

[Hot_Charlie]

There are IMO a lot of pro's and con's to Ealing

I think personally I'd like to know the strategy post their current owner. He's 86 or 87 I think now and what that future plan is for me more important than when will the pitch be replaced.

I think if the succession plan is good and there is enough cash around for a good transition, but if say he's leaving the club to family with no interest in rugby I don't think it is sustainable.

If given an opportunity in the prem for a couple of seasons I think that Ealing could start pulling in crowds.

A huge point. Take Gooley's money away and then what?

I'm less sure about the last point. London Irish had the best stadium in the Prem last year and a strong "identity" and it still didn't pull in the home support.

[johnthegriff]

Unfortunately Irish having moved from their home to Brentford via Harlequins and Reading were not in their last Stadium long enough to build up support however they were doing so when off field matters overtook them.
For clubs to succeed they need their own stadium that can be working for them on non match days. Ealing do have that but without plans to accommodate greater numbers they have no chance of holding their own in the Premiership.

[Rugbygramps]

As usual some very interesting points made. Ealing and their owner are obviously ambitious, I do feel their fan base might be an issue. Yes Tigers were missing most of their big stars, but an Ealing win would have got them a home final in a National competition you would hope that would have attracted enough local support.
I do feel the capacity issue should be dropped to 5000 for the first season, and then increased gradually if thy stay in the premiership, rather than them being left with an empty stadium back down in the championship.
Moving to the premiership is going to increase costs, not the least of which is players and back room staff salaries, is the owner and possibly his family going to be prepared to foot the bill until other income streams increase.
The pitch is an issue. A poster mentioned the Sarries pitch, which is no excellent despite what their groundsman might say, it is average at best, way behind the newer surface at Gloucester for instance. However it does give consistent bounce and provide grip. The Ealing surface seemed dead and lifeless. It appeared on tv there may have been pitches for other sports marked on it which isn’t going to help.
There is nothing wrong with being happy with your lot. There are clubs up and down the leagues that are happy to stay put in their league and give good community support doing so. If Ealing win the championship then let them move up to the premiership, but unfortunately as has been proved recently there are a great number of risks involved in doing so

[howie1880]

The 10k limit is mainly so that the grounds fall under SFSA safely certification I believe so it’s not just a random figure. It’s so they are covered by the ground safety regulations etc

https://sgsa.org.uk/regulatory-support/ ... ification/

[LE18]

As usual some very interesting points made. Ealing and their owner are obviously ambitious, I do feel their fan base might be an issue. Yes Tigers were missing most of their big stars, but an Ealing win would have got them a home final in a National competition you would hope that would have attracted enough local support.
I do feel the capacity issue should be dropped to 5000 for the first season, and then increased gradually if thy stay in the premiership, rather than them being left with an empty stadium back down in the championship.
Moving to the premiership is going to increase costs, not the least of which is players and back room staff salaries, is the owner and possibly his family going to be prepared to foot the bill until other income streams increase.
The pitch is an issue. A poster mentioned the Sarries pitch, which is no excellent despite what their groundsman might say, it is average at best, way behind the newer surface at Gloucester for instance. However it does give consistent bounce and provide grip. The Ealing surface seemed dead and lifeless. It appeared on tv there may have been pitches for other sports marked on it which isn’t going to help.
There is nothing wrong with being happy with your lot. There are clubs up and down the leagues that are happy to stay put in their league and give good community support doing so. If Ealing win the championship then let them move up to the premiership, but unfortunately as has been proved recently there are a great number of risks involved in doing so

Question, should they have merged with LI , that would have got them into the Prem.?

[Rugbygramps]

As usual some very interesting points made. Ealing and their owner are obviously ambitious, I do feel their fan base might be an issue. Yes Tigers were missing most of their big stars, but an Ealing win would have got them a home final in a National competition you would hope that would have attracted enough local support.
I do feel the capacity issue should be dropped to 5000 for the first season, and then increased gradually if thy stay in the premiership, rather than them being left with an empty stadium back down in the championship.
Moving to the premiership is going to increase costs, not the least of which is players and back room staff salaries, is the owner and possibly his family going to be prepared to foot the bill until other income streams increase.
The pitch is an issue. A poster mentioned the Sarries pitch, which is no excellent despite what their groundsman might say, it is average at best, way behind the newer surface at Gloucester for instance. However it does give consistent bounce and provide grip. The Ealing surface seemed dead and lifeless. It appeared on tv there may have been pitches for other sports marked on it which isn’t going to help.
There is nothing wrong with being happy with your lot. There are clubs up and down the leagues that are happy to stay put in their league and give good community support doing so. If Ealing win the championship then let them move up to the premiership, but unfortunately as has been proved recently there are a great number of risks involved in doing so

Question, should they have merged with LI , that would have got them into the Prem.?

I honestly don’t know how feasible that was especially as Irish had debts, and it would have meant the end of one of the clubs as a professional team. The ground was possibly an issue too. Despite what Craig Doyle said the Gtech was never much more than a third full, so they would still have had a stadium that was too large, though that’s better than too small.
I can’t even remember if it was ever discussed

[LE18]

As usual some very interesting points made. Ealing and their owner are obviously ambitious, I do feel their fan base might be an issue. Yes Tigers were missing most of their big stars, but an Ealing win would have got them a home final in a National competition you would hope that would have attracted enough local support.
I do feel the capacity issue should be dropped to 5000 for the first season, and then increased gradually if thy stay in the premiership, rather than them being left with an empty stadium back down in the championship.
Moving to the premiership is going to increase costs, not the least of which is players and back room staff salaries, is the owner and possibly his family going to be prepared to foot the bill until other income streams increase.
The pitch is an issue. A poster mentioned the Sarries pitch, which is no excellent despite what their groundsman might say, it is average at best, way behind the newer surface at Gloucester for instance. However it does give consistent bounce and provide grip. The Ealing surface seemed dead and lifeless. It appeared on tv there may have been pitches for other sports marked on it which isn’t going to help.
There is nothing wrong with being happy with your lot. There are clubs up and down the leagues that are happy to stay put in their league and give good community support doing so. If Ealing win the championship then let them move up to the premiership, but unfortunately as has been proved recently there are a great number of risks involved in doing so

Question, should they have merged with LI , that would have got them into the Prem.?

I honestly don’t know how feasible that was especially as Irish had debts, and it would have meant the end of one of the clubs as a professional team. The ground was possibly an issue too. Despite what Craig Doyle said the Gtech was never much more than a third full, so they would still have had a stadium that was too large, though that’s better than too small.
I can’t even remember if it was ever discussed

Its a pity if it was never thought of as a solution, we lost 1 club but a merger would possibly have "saved/created" a new Prem club, ambition acheived for 1, whilst partially saving another. 2 fan bases coming together, quite close to each other, a stadium large enough, would have been win win for both clubs.
I wonder if that would work for Wasps/LI as an alternative?

[Jimmy Skitz]

The 10k limit is mainly so that the grounds fall under SFSA safely certification I believe so it’s not just a random figure. It’s so they are covered by the ground safety regulations etc

https://sgsa.org.uk/regulatory-support/ ... ification/

then change the buy laws of the league so that grounds must meet those certification levels regardless of capacity. I'd be interested to see the average attendance of Newcastle, Sale and Bristol, I suspect at least 2 of those would be under 10k, same with Irish, Wasps and Worcester before they went under, there is no money in Rugby we know this so unless Premiership Rugby is willing to stump up the cash for the building work and the addition costs of running a bigger stadium demanding they have it is a fallacy.

[GB72]

There is a certain irony that the Prem want well run, sustainable clubs with a good, local fanbase and the first requirement for promotion requires that they either enter debt to buy or build a new ground or sell an essential asset to move to a rented ground and potentially move away from the locality of their fan base as there are not stadiums on every street corner.

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

There is a certain irony that the Prem want well run, sustainable clubs with a good, local fanbase and the first requirement for promotion requires that they either enter debt to buy or build a new ground or sell an essential asset to move to a rented ground and potentially move away from the locality of their fan base as there are not stadiums on every street corner.

PRL aren't fit for purpose.

[Hot_Charlie]

As usual some very interesting points made. Ealing and their owner are obviously ambitious, I do feel their fan base might be an issue. Yes Tigers were missing most of their big stars, but an Ealing win would have got them a home final in a National competition you would hope that would have attracted enough local support.
I do feel the capacity issue should be dropped to 5000 for the first season, and then increased gradually if thy stay in the premiership, rather than them being left with an empty stadium back down in the championship.
Moving to the premiership is going to increase costs, not the least of which is players and back room staff salaries, is the owner and possibly his family going to be prepared to foot the bill until other income streams increase.
The pitch is an issue. A poster mentioned the Sarries pitch, which is no excellent despite what their groundsman might say, it is average at best, way behind the newer surface at Gloucester for instance. However it does give consistent bounce and provide grip. The Ealing surface seemed dead and lifeless. It appeared on tv there may have been pitches for other sports marked on it which isn’t going to help.
There is nothing wrong with being happy with your lot. There are clubs up and down the leagues that are happy to stay put in their league and give good community support doing so. If Ealing win the championship then let them move up to the premiership, but unfortunately as has been proved recently there are a great number of risks involved in doing so

Question, should they have merged with LI , that would have got them into the Prem.?

Two clubs, 2 miles apart? One for sale for "£1", since gone bust.

You wonder why not, don't you?

[Hot_Charlie]

There is a certain irony that the Prem want well run, sustainable clubs with a good, local fanbase and the first requirement for promotion requires that they either enter debt to buy or build a new ground or sell an essential asset to move to a rented ground and potentially move away from the locality of their fan base as there are not stadiums on every street corner.

Apart from in London.

3 and a bit miles from Vallis Way to Brentford as the crow flies. But not far the other side of course is Harlequins!