2024 Six Nations Chat

[MCC1964]

I see Scotland are seeking ‘admission of officials’ error from World Rugby’. I can’t help but muse what the reaction might be if it were England making such a move.

[LE18]

Do defences really dominate now ? Take the Five Nations of 1973 as an example; the biggest single score was Wales' 25 against England. Otherwise 10-9, 14-6, 12-3 and 6-4 are representative examples that year.

The rose-tinted specs always paint the good ol' days as an era of beautiful, free-flowing rugby. Perceptions perhaps reinforced by replays of specific snapshots, or simply nostalgia. But the reality is the game has never been as high skilled and high scoring as it is now.

I'm sure I've seen stats that kicking was actually as common, if not moreso, back in the day, and much of it was far more aimless than it is today.

I've been around a long time and I don't remember kicking like we get now, no kick tennis, just kicking for touch and the occassional Gary Owen, which was quite novel back in the day.

[Darc Tiger]

Do defences really dominate now ? Take the Five Nations of 1973 as an example; the biggest single score was Wales' 25 against England. Otherwise 10-9, 14-6, 12-3 and 6-4 are representative examples that year.

The rose-tinted specs always paint the good ol' days as an era of beautiful, free-flowing rugby. Perceptions perhaps reinforced by replays of specific snapshots, or simply nostalgia. But the reality is the game has never been as high skilled and high scoring as it is now.

I'm sure I've seen stats that kicking was actually as common, if not moreso, back in the day, and much of it was far more aimless than it is today.

I've been around a long time and I don't remember kicking like we get now, no kick tennis, just kicking for touch and the occassional Gary Owen, which was quite novel back in the day.

A little outdated, but still illustrative.

https://greenandgoldrugby.com/changes-i ... teur-eras/

Some quotes:

"The number of kicks in general play has decreased significantly, down from an average of around 75 per game in the 1980s to around 45 in 2012."

"The number of set pieces per game has decreased from over 80 per game in the 1980s to around 40 in 2012."

"In the 1991 RWC the ball was in play for only 24 minutes and 48 seconds per game."

Additionally, the average kicks per match in RWC 2023 (56.9) was the highest since 1995 (59.1), but markedly lower than 91 (63.5) and 87 (65.7).

[Tiglon]

Do defences really dominate now ? Take the Five Nations of 1973 as an example; the biggest single score was Wales' 25 against England. Otherwise 10-9, 14-6, 12-3 and 6-4 are representative examples that year.

The rose-tinted specs always paint the good ol' days as an era of beautiful, free-flowing rugby. Perceptions perhaps reinforced by replays of specific snapshots, or simply nostalgia. But the reality is the game has never been as high skilled and high scoring as it is now.

I'm sure I've seen stats that kicking was actually as common, if not moreso, back in the day, and much of it was far more aimless than it is today.

Totally agree. Looking back to the good old days there wasn’t the multi phase rugby you see now. Ball was won kicked or spun down the line. There were no forwards standing out looking to punch holes, backs never got involved in rucks or mauls, and no one had ever heard of a jackal or a counter ruck. It was all a bit of a mess tbh but it was what we were used to and we loved it.
I’m no stato but I would imagine that the average score in the premiership, for example has risen yearly, the introduction of bonus points no doubt helping.

I recently looked at the last 5 years or so in the Premiership, comparing Saints try & points scoring record since Vesty with where Tigers are at this season. Yes, I'm boring.

The point is, you're right, there are more points and tries now than a few years ago. More kicks too, if it was 45 per game in 2012.

I think the problem is that there is an obsession with reducing kicks and increasing running rugby. But why? If that's genuinely never been how rugby is, then why is that what we need in the future?

[Rugbygramps]

The rose-tinted specs always paint the good ol' days as an era of beautiful, free-flowing rugby. Perceptions perhaps reinforced by replays of specific snapshots, or simply nostalgia. But the reality is the game has never been as high skilled and high scoring as it is now.

I'm sure I've seen stats that kicking was actually as common, if not moreso, back in the day, and much of it was far more aimless than it is today.

Totally agree. Looking back to the good old days there wasn’t the multi phase rugby you see now. Ball was won kicked or spun down the line. There were no forwards standing out looking to punch holes, backs never got involved in rucks or mauls, and no one had ever heard of a jackal or a counter ruck. It was all a bit of a mess tbh but it was what we were used to and we loved it.
I’m no stato but I would imagine that the average score in the premiership, for example has risen yearly, the introduction of bonus points no doubt helping.

I recently looked at the last 5 years or so in the Premiership, comparing Saints try & points scoring record since Vesty with where Tigers are at this season. Yes, I'm boring.

The point is, you're right, there are more points and tries now than a few years ago. More kicks too, if it was 45 per game in 2012.

I think the problem is that there is an obsession with reducing kicks and increasing running rugby. But why? If that's genuinely never been how rugby is, then why is that what we need in the future?

Do you think it’s the influence of the southern hemisphere competitions where both sides regularly score 20 plus points and sometimes defence is optional

[Tiglon]

Totally agree. Looking back to the good old days there wasn’t the multi phase rugby you see now. Ball was won kicked or spun down the line. There were no forwards standing out looking to punch holes, backs never got involved in rucks or mauls, and no one had ever heard of a jackal or a counter ruck. It was all a bit of a mess tbh but it was what we were used to and we loved it.
I’m no stato but I would imagine that the average score in the premiership, for example has risen yearly, the introduction of bonus points no doubt helping.

I recently looked at the last 5 years or so in the Premiership, comparing Saints try & points scoring record since Vesty with where Tigers are at this season. Yes, I'm boring.

The point is, you're right, there are more points and tries now than a few years ago. More kicks too, if it was 45 per game in 2012.

I think the problem is that there is an obsession with reducing kicks and increasing running rugby. But why? If that's genuinely never been how rugby is, then why is that what we need in the future?

Do you think it’s the influence of the southern hemisphere competitions where both sides regularly score 20 plus points and sometimes defence is optional

Almost certainly, but they have even less interest in rugby union in Australia than we do here, NZ is it's own little world, and South Fricans seem more into the power game than anyone else... so I'm not sure why trying to play like Australia is seen as the solution to anything

It's the constant obsession with "growing the game" which, in my opinion, is a huge wild goose chase.

[Pellsey]

Apologies for the hyperbole, but reducing players in union already exists - sevens. If the pure running game is what is wanted, this is what should be watched. I personally like big blokes bashing each other - it is one of the reasons I used to love playing - smashing arrogant flankers peeling off against me (a 10 or a 12!) and it is certainly one of the reasons I love watching the game. Sure, that is obviously an injury risk, but that is true of other sports, especially fighting sports.

Why does it have to be one extreme or another? There are plenty of numbers in between 7 and 15.

Agreed, but I personally don't really see the need to do that. I think I have seen a 10s tournament before, and we used to play (as kids) 12 a side. For me though, that means far too much running!

I have no issue with having another format as well, such as 10s or 12s, but 15s has worked for a very long time and I see no need to change.

[Tiglon]

Apologies for the hyperbole, but reducing players in union already exists - sevens. If the pure running game is what is wanted, this is what should be watched. I personally like big blokes bashing each other - it is one of the reasons I used to love playing - smashing arrogant flankers peeling off against me (a 10 or a 12!) and it is certainly one of the reasons I love watching the game. Sure, that is obviously an injury risk, but that is true of other sports, especially fighting sports.

Why does it have to be one extreme or another? There are plenty of numbers in between 7 and 15.

Agreed, but I personally don't really see the need to do that. I think I have seen a 10s tournament before, and we used to play (as kids) 12 a side. For me though, that means far too much running!

I have no issue with having another format as well, such as 10s or 12s, but 15s has worked for a very long time and I see no need to change.

I'm happy with 15's, but there are many in the game who appear to think it doesn't work and that we do need more running and less kicking.

[Pellsey]

Why does it have to be one extreme or another? There are plenty of numbers in between 7 and 15.

Agreed, but I personally don't really see the need to do that. I think I have seen a 10s tournament before, and we used to play (as kids) 12 a side. For me though, that means far too much running!

I have no issue with having another format as well, such as 10s or 12s, but 15s has worked for a very long time and I see no need to change.

I'm happy with 15's, but there are many in the game who appear to think it doesn't work and that we do need more running and less kicking.

They should watch 7s or Rugby Light then IMHO

I actually enjoy and appreciate the kicking tennis (as an former fly half)... People watch lawn tennis, don't they!? ... I guess for similar reasons - it is all to do with the angles, the hangtime, the spin, and the placement. There are many "shots" (kicks) which can be performed and half the skill is which to carry out.

[trendylfj]

Manu is back as well as Martin

[GB72]

Guessing Lawrence is still injured as he is the only one of the anticipated returnees not to feature.

Not sure about JVP. Probably still injured, possibly too late to try and integrate a new scrum half into this tournament, at a push may have been left to get some game time with us before being considered.

[Scott1]

Forwards: Ollie Chessum, Dan Cole, Alex Coles, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Chandler Cunningham-South, Ben Curry, Theo Dan, Alex Dombrandt, Ben Earl, Charlie Ewels, Ellis Genge, Jamie George (capt), Joe Heyes, Maro Itoje, Joe Marler, Beno Obano, George Martin, Ethan Roots, Will Stuart, Sam Underhill.

Backs: Danny Care, Elliot Daly, Fraser Dingwall, Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, George Ford, Tommy Freeman, George Furbank, Alex Mitchell, Will Muir, Max Ojomoh, Tom Roebuck, Henry Slade, Fin Smith, Ben Spencer, Freddie Steward, Manu Tuilagi.

[ourla]

Isn't one of the more interesting things in life the contrasts and the unexpected.

If you've been out in the sticks for a few days going to the City can be very exhilarating and vice versa.

So it as when you have a bit of kick tennis and then suddenly one team runs it out from the back.

[GB72]

Wonder how many players we may lose to the England A game next week.

[sam16111986]

I see Scotland are seeking ‘admission of officials’ error from World Rugby’. I can’t help but muse what the reaction might be if it were England making such a move.

Seems very odd considering there's no mention of Duhan van Der Merwe's high tackle/offside not even being checked a couple of metres from the line and clearly stopping a French try in the first half.

You get away with some, some go against you. You have to roll with it.