LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - Crocodile McKeller: Men at Work

[ABClub]

Sorry Sam, I missed that response until seeing RBs response there.

Largely in agreement with RB though. I tend to think that if you can get over the gain line in early phase play then suddenly lots of forwards look like they have better hands. If you can't do that, then having players with the hands of Mercer or prime Sinckler isn't going to do too much.

I just think we're lacking big ball carriers across the forwards.

1.Cronin 2.Montoya 3.Cole 4.Martin 5.Chessum 6.Hanro 7.Reffell 8.Wiese

A starting pack such as that has Wiese and Martin who are beasts. Then Chess, Montoya and Hanro who are strong carriers. Which is about the minimum I'd be looking for in a pack.

1.van Wyk 2.Dolly 3.Heyes 4.Wells 5.Henderson 6.Rogerson 7.Cracknell 8.Hatherell

Suddenly, that just has Henderson and Hatherell though. Cracknell probably the next most dynamic carrier? That doesn't mean that the others aren't good players. Far from it. I just feel we have a lack of forwards who can get over the gain line on early phase play. Especially against set defences.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Cronin off to Munster is the rumour going around

Makes sense for all parties that one, especially considering that's where he's from.

Van Wyk being out of contract too this summer means we could have 2 LH spots up for grabs (though he could extend)

I think a lot have said LH is a big target if we have money to spend there, I'd be looking at a few options.

1. West may not be staying at Sarries. I liked him when he was here.
2. It was rumoured we nearly had Fischetti in the summer but not quite enough cap space so he went to Zebre, sounds like that was a 1 year with an option to extend.
3. If papa Lam stays at Bristol, with rumours that he may have lost the dressing room there is a small chance Genge may be tempted away if personal circumstances have opened up a bit for him.

[sam16111986]

That's absolutely my view. Try to add more physical players and carriers throughout the pack. Rather than replace Wiese like for like. Which we aren't doing, as even if there was one available, we'd be outbid the same as Jasper.

Jason Jenkins - There are flaws in his game but that means he won't require RG Snyman type wages. He's a monster in contact though.

Vaea Fifita - Strong ball carrier, plays lock/6/8. If we signed a Wainwright type 8 then someone like Fifita could open up having Hanro and Fifita in the back row to beef things up if required against certain opposition. It would also provide more contingency for if Martin, Chess and Henderson aren't available in the row.

Sione Vailanu - Not a perfect player but carries hard and wouldn't break the bank. As a tactical option when needed someone like that would be useful.

Biyi Alo - A massive TH who carries well. Montoya is the only prominent ball carrier in the front row currently.

Our use of the ball when we have it, is for me the biggest issue. We are to obvious, particularly in our forward carries. There's very little to no interplay between our forwards and it just makes it easy for the opposition to number up.

Adding MORE POWER doesn't feel like the answer. It's not a bad idea but in isolation I don't seeing it being a golden bullet.

Personally I'd like us to look for an 8 with a broader skillset. Ideally someone who can truck it up but also act as that forward playmaker style player. Currently Montoya has the best hands in the forwards by a distance. Having a couple of ball carriers who can legitimately mix it up both carry and also bring on another forward on an angle. The 8 replacement then doesn't need to be a Jasper style menace ball in hand because with any luck we can build up an attack where he isn't having to crash into two or three defenders on every carry. Having an attack coach to drill this into the players is also paramount.

Leinster's carriers aren't individually more devastating than Weise. Their attack and the interplay between them often send the ball carriers into a half gap or a solo tackler. Just gives them momentum and playing with momentum makes life a lot easier.

Now Vaea Fifita might well fit that role but the last rumour I heard was that he wanted out of Scarlets to head back to New Zealand.

No point in having more playmakers when no one can either give them space to make the playmaking or run off it.
Leinster may not have someone of Wiese carrying ability but the other 7 forwards are pretty much all better carriers nearly.

Like lets be real who is going to make bigger impact running of a playmaker?
Cronin, Heyes, Wells, Reffell
or
Porter, Furlong, McCarthy, JVDF
They create their momentum by having 8 forwards who can at least make the gainline with every carry nearly.

Isn't the estimate that the Leinster salary cap is 10m Euros though. They are an international side as much as they are a club side. We're unlikely to stack well against them.

I said it wasn't a golden bullet answer, not that we shouldn't look to add some additional firepower. If we can recruit a couple of mobile monsters in the forwards we should.

A forward that can help facilitate some carrying at pace and stop out ball carriers being gang tackled will help make the most of the carriers we have. We've seen Mako do it brilliantly for England and Sarries for years.

If Cronin is out the door then we do have definite cap to spend at loosehead. If we are also seeing van Wyk going it would be great to see a former LI double with Goodrick-Clarke and Fischetti both coming in. Carrying in the prop department would certainly help, I liked the KC idea of adding Alo as he'd be a fairly cheap addition and with Hurd in the Scotland picture, Heyes in the England picture and Cole winding down Alo as an impact sub makes sense.

[RunTigerRun]

I don’t think he’s been mentioned by anyone and I don’t know his contract status, but what about someone like Thomas Gallo? Strong Puma LH, good in the tight and scrum but also a carrier around the park? Decent age profile and maybe not starting as much for Benetton? Being a strong test LH but maybe not commanding as high a salary as others?

The chance to play with Montoya regularly and losing Wiese could free a foreign player spot perhaps?

I’m just throwing another name into the ring - no credibility or source.

[tigerburnie]

Whitcombe and Richardson are in the mix at loosehead, though we would need one more at least, looking at the academy, I don't think anyone is close yet to playing in the senior team, though there seem to be some prospects going forward.

[BG01]

I don’t think he’s been mentioned by anyone and I don’t know his contract status, but what about someone like Thomas Gallo? Strong Puma LH, good in the tight and scrum but also a carrier around the park? Decent age profile and maybe not starting as much for Benetton? Being a strong test LH but maybe not commanding as high a salary as others?

The chance to play with Montoya regularly and losing Wiese could free a foreign player spot perhaps?

I’m just throwing another name into the ring - no credibility or source.

I think this would be a brilliant shout, he has bags of potential and has shown he can do it all when he's playing well. Slight issue with the foreign player bit but might be manageable given our other players.

Both Miell and VDF look good enough to take the step up. With Cronin and FVW probably leaving or at least taking a step back at the end of the year I'd be happy with [new international loosehead TBC], Whitcombe, VDF, Miell. That is potentially a really young bunch though, so would be good if Cronin could be convinced to stay on a smaller salary to support.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Whitcombe and Richardson are in the mix at loosehead, though we would need one more at least, looking at the academy, I don't think anyone is close yet to playing in the senior team, though there seem to be some prospects going forward.

Richardson has barely played loosehead in the last 12 months, certainly this season and for chunks of last the majority of his playing for Nottingham has been at TH.

Van De Flier regularly coming off the bench at Championship is a good std for him atm, Miell in the U20s will be a decent prospect too.

[Rugbygramps]

Agree with all previous posters about the carrying of the forwards helping the backs. I’m going to use dynamic rather than powerful. Hanro as powerful man as he is isn’t a dynamic carrier, why I think he’s better at 6, and why MVS for the short term we had him was a better option at 7

[RagingBull]

Our use of the ball when we have it, is for me the biggest issue. We are to obvious, particularly in our forward carries. There's very little to no interplay between our forwards and it just makes it easy for the opposition to number up.

Adding MORE POWER doesn't feel like the answer. It's not a bad idea but in isolation I don't seeing it being a golden bullet.

Personally I'd like us to look for an 8 with a broader skillset. Ideally someone who can truck it up but also act as that forward playmaker style player. Currently Montoya has the best hands in the forwards by a distance. Having a couple of ball carriers who can legitimately mix it up both carry and also bring on another forward on an angle. The 8 replacement then doesn't need to be a Jasper style menace ball in hand because with any luck we can build up an attack where he isn't having to crash into two or three defenders on every carry. Having an attack coach to drill this into the players is also paramount.

Leinster's carriers aren't individually more devastating than Weise. Their attack and the interplay between them often send the ball carriers into a half gap or a solo tackler. Just gives them momentum and playing with momentum makes life a lot easier.

Now Vaea Fifita might well fit that role but the last rumour I heard was that he wanted out of Scarlets to head back to New Zealand.

No point in having more playmakers when no one can either give them space to make the playmaking or run off it.
Leinster may not have someone of Wiese carrying ability but the other 7 forwards are pretty much all better carriers nearly.

Like lets be real who is going to make bigger impact running of a playmaker?
Cronin, Heyes, Wells, Reffell
or
Porter, Furlong, McCarthy, JVDF
They create their momentum by having 8 forwards who can at least make the gainline with every carry nearly.

Isn't the estimate that the Leinster salary cap is 10m Euros though. They are an international side as much as they are a club side. We're unlikely to stack well against them.

I said it wasn't a golden bullet answer, not that we shouldn't look to add some additional firepower. If we can recruit a couple of mobile monsters in the forwards we should.

A forward that can help facilitate some carrying at pace and stop out ball carriers being gang tackled will help make the most of the carriers we have. We've seen Mako do it brilliantly for England and Sarries for years.

If Cronin is out the door then we do have definite cap to spend at loosehead. If we are also seeing van Wyk going it would be great to see a former LI double with Goodrick-Clarke and Fischetti both coming in. Carrying in the prop department would certainly help, I liked the KC idea of adding Alo as he'd be a fairly cheap addition and with Hurd in the Scotland picture, Heyes in the England picture and Cole winding down Alo as an impact sub makes sense.

Leinster have a big wage bill yeah, but same time who in their pack wasn't from their academy?

[Tiglon]

No point in having more playmakers when no one can either give them space to make the playmaking or run off it.
Leinster may not have someone of Wiese carrying ability but the other 7 forwards are pretty much all better carriers nearly.

Like lets be real who is going to make bigger impact running of a playmaker?
Cronin, Heyes, Wells, Reffell
or
Porter, Furlong, McCarthy, JVDF
They create their momentum by having 8 forwards who can at least make the gainline with every carry nearly.

Isn't the estimate that the Leinster salary cap is 10m Euros though. They are an international side as much as they are a club side. We're unlikely to stack well against them.

I said it wasn't a golden bullet answer, not that we shouldn't look to add some additional firepower. If we can recruit a couple of mobile monsters in the forwards we should.

A forward that can help facilitate some carrying at pace and stop out ball carriers being gang tackled will help make the most of the carriers we have. We've seen Mako do it brilliantly for England and Sarries for years.

If Cronin is out the door then we do have definite cap to spend at loosehead. If we are also seeing van Wyk going it would be great to see a former LI double with Goodrick-Clarke and Fischetti both coming in. Carrying in the prop department would certainly help, I liked the KC idea of adding Alo as he'd be a fairly cheap addition and with Hurd in the Scotland picture, Heyes in the England picture and Cole winding down Alo as an impact sub makes sense.

Leinster have a big wage bill yeah, but same time who in their pack wasn't from their academy?

They have a fantastic setup, but they wouldn't be able to keep all those academy graduates with a £5.4m salary cap.

Pack aside, the money (and promise of international pathway) allows them to bring in Gibson-Park and Lowe, without whom they do have greater weaknesses.

Imagine a Midlands provincial team with €10m to spend on player wages. You'd have all the best current Tigers products, plus the Curry brothers, Ollie Lawrence, Fin Smith, Dingwall and potentially many more. And they'd all stay for most of their careers, playing together day in day out for club and country.

The South East, South West and Northern provinces wouldn't be too bad either...

[Rugbygramps]

Provincial English sides with feeder clubs, that’s a novel idea, surprised that hasn’t been tried somewhere in the world

[RagingBull]

Isn't the estimate that the Leinster salary cap is 10m Euros though. They are an international side as much as they are a club side. We're unlikely to stack well against them.

I said it wasn't a golden bullet answer, not that we shouldn't look to add some additional firepower. If we can recruit a couple of mobile monsters in the forwards we should.

A forward that can help facilitate some carrying at pace and stop out ball carriers being gang tackled will help make the most of the carriers we have. We've seen Mako do it brilliantly for England and Sarries for years.

If Cronin is out the door then we do have definite cap to spend at loosehead. If we are also seeing van Wyk going it would be great to see a former LI double with Goodrick-Clarke and Fischetti both coming in. Carrying in the prop department would certainly help, I liked the KC idea of adding Alo as he'd be a fairly cheap addition and with Hurd in the Scotland picture, Heyes in the England picture and Cole winding down Alo as an impact sub makes sense.

Leinster have a big wage bill yeah, but same time who in their pack wasn't from their academy?

They have a fantastic setup, but they wouldn't be able to keep all those academy graduates with a £5.4m salary cap.

Pack aside, the money (and promise of international pathway) allows them to bring in Gibson-Park and Lowe, without whom they do have greater weaknesses.

Imagine a Midlands provincial team with €10m to spend on player wages. You'd have all the best current Tigers products, plus the Curry brothers, Ollie Lawrence, Fin Smith, Dingwall and potentially many more. And they'd all stay for most of their careers, playing together day in day out for club and country.

The South East, South West and Northern provinces wouldn't be too bad either...

IDK about that.
I think most would've stayed which player that played on the weekend would leave Ireland chances?

Let's be real we have a decent squad, I mean our fully fit starting XV only Hanro isn't a international.
we just need to decide if we can upgrade some areas in sacrifice for depth trusting some younger players.

For example
Say could we sign a really good big impact lock/6 cover for the cap of Carter, Rogerson, Cracknell and then plug the remaining depth by trusting Carnduff and Ilione?
Instead of Cokanasiga do you trust Woodward.

[Tiglon]

Leinster have a big wage bill yeah, but same time who in their pack wasn't from their academy?

They have a fantastic setup, but they wouldn't be able to keep all those academy graduates with a £5.4m salary cap.

Pack aside, the money (and promise of international pathway) allows them to bring in Gibson-Park and Lowe, without whom they do have greater weaknesses.

Imagine a Midlands provincial team with €10m to spend on player wages. You'd have all the best current Tigers products, plus the Curry brothers, Ollie Lawrence, Fin Smith, Dingwall and potentially many more. And they'd all stay for most of their careers, playing together day in day out for club and country.

The South East, South West and Northern provinces wouldn't be too bad either...

IDK about that.
I think most would've stayed which player that played on the weekend would leave Ireland chances?

Let's be real we have a decent squad, I mean our fully fit starting XV only Hanro isn't a international.
we just need to decide if we can upgrade some areas in sacrifice for depth trusting some younger players.

For example
Say could we sign a really good big impact lock/6 cover for the cap of Carter, Rogerson, Cracknell and then plug the remaining depth by trusting Carnduff and Ilione?
Instead of Cokanasiga do you trust Woodward.

Yeah lots of interesting questions.

It seems we don't trust Cokanasiga anyway, so we might as well let him leave and not trust Woodward instead.

Lock and back row are a bit more difficult. We have to rely on that depth regularly so Carnduff and Ilione would need to be ready. The indications are that we don't think they are just yet.

[GB72]

I think that, just as the Bedford game appeared to be the last chance saloon for some players, the Ealing semi final may be the same for another batch on the basis that if they are not of a standard now when they can perform well against championship opposition, the chances of them making the grade in the prem will be pretty much non existent.

[sam16111986]

They have a fantastic setup, but they wouldn't be able to keep all those academy graduates with a £5.4m salary cap.

Pack aside, the money (and promise of international pathway) allows them to bring in Gibson-Park and Lowe, without whom they do have greater weaknesses.

Imagine a Midlands provincial team with €10m to spend on player wages. You'd have all the best current Tigers products, plus the Curry brothers, Ollie Lawrence, Fin Smith, Dingwall and potentially many more. And they'd all stay for most of their careers, playing together day in day out for club and country.

The South East, South West and Northern provinces wouldn't be too bad either...

IDK about that.
I think most would've stayed which player that played on the weekend would leave Ireland chances?

Let's be real we have a decent squad, I mean our fully fit starting XV only Hanro isn't a international.
we just need to decide if we can upgrade some areas in sacrifice for depth trusting some younger players.

For example
Say could we sign a really good big impact lock/6 cover for the cap of Carter, Rogerson, Cracknell and then plug the remaining depth by trusting Carnduff and Ilione?
Instead of Cokanasiga do you trust Woodward.

Yeah lots of interesting questions.

It seems we don't trust Cokanasiga anyway, so we might as well let him leave and not trust Woodward instead.

Lock and back row are a bit more difficult. We have to rely on that depth regularly so Carnduff and Ilione would need to be ready. The indications are that we don't think they are just yet.

I think we're shaping to trust Woodward in the near future. 8 PRC games already for him and he's been playing pretty regularly for Nottingham. Promotion to the senior squad and rotated game time likely to follow though as he's an IC it's mildly problematic as there's two good ICs already ahead of him though we know Kelly can do a job at 13.

Carnduff, Chessum Jnr and Manz are all progressing through quite well. Hopefully see more of them as they push into the side.

Leinster set their academy up very well a number of years back and have reaped the rewards from it. A hefty budget and a Union that has set up international recognition to reward those that stay also helps. Whilst we may have a first XV that are all internationals Leinster probably have two XVs of all internationals at this point (if not they are probably very close). The way they keep hold of their best talent to fill out the squad and then target a small number of high calibre overseas players is impressive. Casually adding RG Snyman to that side for next season is a scary thought (if they can keep him fit).

We do need a bit of a squad reshuffle. It would be a big call to sacrifice some of our squad depth in order to bring in some bigger impact players but maybe that's the gamble we have to go with and trust in youth to fill out the squad a bit more. If the 6N is going to be empty of club games again there's really not the big risk in going after internationals or potential internationals there was previously.