2024 Six Nations Chat

[mol2]

Mercer is too lightweight for an international 8.
But for the citings, I wonder if the thinking was Barbeary at 8 and Earl at 7?

The captaincy suggests a short term plan until one of the younger players makes his mark, although I would have gone to Itoje who has found his form again and be around for some time but I wonder if Borthwick prefers Martin and Chessum as his locks and making Itoje captain makes that tricky.

Ford not being made captain suggests to me that he isn’t in contention even if he is fit.

[Tiglon]

I thought Mercer was too lightweight to be a top level 8 before he went to France, but if you're big enough to play 8 in the Top14 and be player of the season then you're probably big enough to be an international 8. Dombrandt, while probably a bit bigger, is not going to be bashing holes in much.

I think George has always been higher up the captaincy pecking order than Itoje for both Sarries and England. I doubt Chessum and Martin are both ahead of Itoje right now. I'm not sure Itoje is renowned for his leadership qualities, but he's surely still one of the first names on the team sheet.

Borthwick chose Genge over Ford for Tigers captain so I doubt he would have chosen Ford for England captain whether he's nailed on starting 10 or not.

I think if (and it's a big if) Dombrandt is first choice 8 for the tournament then it would make sense to go with Smith at 10, but are you then having to play a more open game plan?

As for this tournament being a free hit for Borthwick... no chance. There's still a lot of scepticism out there and he needs a decent 6N to backup the World Cup showing. It's easy for us to say throw in the youngsters, but if he does that and finishes 5th he'll be in for a torrent of criticism.

The fixtures are quite kind for England, with Italy and Wales up first giving the best opportunity for a good start. Scotland away is always tough these days, but then Ireland at home. The hardest game is last, which means we could be going into that final weekend in contention for 2nd.

[Not a jock]

I believe all this talk of building towards the next World Cup is tosh. If the core of the squad have been together for multiple 6N, AI and WC competitions, they should have gelled. At each event, a few of the old guard will be let go (or retired). and newcomers will be added who should quickly assimilate and learn the squad's agreed tactics.

Surely the art of being a successful international coach is knowing which individuals makeup the strongest overall team? - that's often not the "best" 15 individuals, especially as this often leads to playing people out of position eg OF at 12, MB/FS at 11/14. Wouldn't it be ridiculous to name Mercer at 1 just to squeeze him into the team and to solve the current loose head issue?!?

Another example, from the good old days - remember the Tigers vs Baabaas' Boxing Day matches? Not so many stars in the Tigers team in those days but they often ran rings round the star-studded Baabaas who where a scratch team with little or no time to train together. To undermine my own argument I would concede that some of their underperformance might have had something to do with the social side of being a Baabaa.

[Soggypitch]

I believe all this talk of building towards the next World Cup is tosh. If the core of the squad have been together for multiple 6N, AI and WC competitions, they should have gelled. At each event, a few of the old guard will be let go (or retired). and newcomers will be added who should quickly assimilate and learn the squad's agreed tactics.

Surely the art of being a successful international coach is knowing which individuals makeup the strongest overall team? - that's often not the "best" 15 individuals, especially as this often leads to playing people out of position eg OF at 12, MB/FS at 11/14. Wouldn't it be ridiculous to name Mercer at 1 just to squeeze him into the team and to solve the current loose head issue?!?

Another example, from the good old days - remember the Tigers vs Baabaas' Boxing Day matches? Not so many stars in the Tigers team in those days but they often ran rings round the star-studded Baabaas who where a scratch team with little or no time to train together. To undermine my own argument I would concede that some of their underperformance might have had something to do with the social side of being a Baabaa.

I agree with that. Forget the WC in 4 years time, we need a really good performance in this 6Ns, pick the best team for the job, irrespective of age!

[westwinds31]

I think the Dombrandt vs Mercer clash at Twickenham said a lot. A one-sided affair in Dombrandt's favour. Ok it's one game.

[mol2]

Mercer is playing in a poor team Barbeary likely to receive a longish ban for 2 reds in the same game

Thought you couldn’t get a ban for 2 yellows but I’ll stand corrected. Surely playing well in a poor team will be ideal for England

Both offences were upgraded to reds by the citing commissioner, so in effect he was awarded 2 reds in the same game. Sorry I thought that had been widely reported

Is it not strange that with TV reviews used to decide on foul play and the sanctions.
So in a European game with high level officials is it right that the citing commissioner can upgrade these to reds without compelling new video evidence.

Surely citings should be for things missed at the time?

Leave the disciplinary hearings to decide on level of punishment for red cards or foul play that has been missed.

[Rugbygramps]

Thought you couldn’t get a ban for 2 yellows but I’ll stand corrected. Surely playing well in a poor team will be ideal for England

Both offences were upgraded to reds by the citing commissioner, so in effect he was awarded 2 reds in the same game. Sorry I thought that had been widely reported

Is it not strange that with TV reviews used to decide on foul play and the sanctions.
So in a European game with high level officials is it right that the citing commissioner can upgrade these to reds without compelling new video evidence.

Surely citings should be for things missed at the time?

Leave the disciplinary hearings to decide on level of punishment for red cards or foul play that has been missed.

IMO no. The citing commission have access to other views that aren’t necessarily available during the game, and in this instance both decisions were wrong, and certainly in the case of the first offence if Barbeary had got red then Racing would have won the game. The only person who thought they were yellows was the ref and the rest of his team weren’t strong enough to disagree imo. Again only my view but the second offence was worse than the first, forearm smash to the throat as could have caused a really nasty injury and Barbeary shouldn’t have been on the pitch

[TigerFeetSteve]

Barbeary banned for 3 weeks down to 2 with tackle school, for the first offence. 2nd offence he got cleared of.

So by not selecting him in the training squad Barbeary is now eligible for selection for the opening 6N game. (Had he been selected yesterday he wouldn't have been)

[Rugbygramps]

Barbeary banned for 3 weeks down to 2 with tackle school, for the first offence. 2nd offence he got cleared of.

So by not selecting him in the training squad Barbeary is now eligible for selection for the opening 6N game. (Had he been selected yesterday he wouldn't have been)

Shows what I know . So any back row injury during training and he’ll be shipped in. I suppose they could even bring him in for the 2nd game anyway

[Leicestertinytiger]

I think the Dombrandt vs Mercer clash at Twickenham said a lot. A one-sided affair in Dombrandt's favour. Ok it's one game.

Dombrandt was the much better player. I’d like to see him get another chance at 8 with Earl at 7. Think together they could be great. Axis of Dom/Care/Smith will be played at some point no doubt.

Barbeary will be brought in though at some point.

[MCC1964]

Yeah. Listening to various interviews SB has given, he’s definitely a big fan of Alfie.

[Rugbygramps]

Yeah. Listening to various interviews SB has given, he’s definitely a big fan of Alfie.

Very much in the Wiese mould big gain line breaker

[Wes]

As this squad does not appear to pleased those who want the strongest possible squad (too many new players) and those that want to throw anyone over 30 onto the scrap heap, I'd suggest Borthwick has got it about right!
Enough old hands to teach new players what it's like to step up from 4000 spectators at club level an no noise, to 80,000 screaming for blood (obviously not at Twickenham) and not being able to hear yourself think whilst having half the time on the ball to decide what to do.
I'm also always quite surprised about the comments on Captain. Itoje is an immense player, but I'm not sure he's ever captained a side. Why would he make a good captain? It's guess work that anyone would until they have a level of track record for spectators but I'm pretty sure, after 70 caps the coaches know if someone is right or not.
What I do like is that my 10year old is actually excited about this squad, he can't wait for the tournament to start (unlike the world cup) and that's got to count for something!

[Rugbygramps]

As this squad does not appear to pleased those who want the strongest possible squad (too many new players) and those that want to throw anyone over 30 onto the scrap heap, I'd suggest Borthwick has got it about right!
Enough old hands to teach new players what it's like to step up from 4000 spectators at club level an no noise, to 80,000 screaming for blood (obviously not at Twickenham) and not being able to hear yourself think whilst having half the time on the ball to decide what to do.
I'm also always quite surprised about the comments on Captain. Itoje is an immense player, but I'm not sure he's ever captained a side. Why would he make a good captain? It's guess work that anyone would until they have a level of track record for spectators but I'm pretty sure, after 70 caps the coaches know if someone is right or not.
What I do like is that my 10year old is actually excited about this squad, he can't wait for the tournament to start (unlike the world cup) and that's got to count for something!

I think, though possibly wrong, Itoje captained England u20s to a World Cup win.
Totally agree with all your comments especially re the experienced players who are there to pass on hundreds of caps of knowledge before the real build up to 2027 begins

[TigerFeetSteve]

Barbeary banned for 3 weeks down to 2 with tackle school, for the first offence. 2nd offence he got cleared of.

So by not selecting him in the training squad Barbeary is now eligible for selection for the opening 6N game. (Had he been selected yesterday he wouldn't have been)

Shows what I know . So any back row injury during training and he’ll be shipped in. I suppose they could even bring him in for the 2nd game anyway

They can bring him in for the first game, Borthwick has not chosen his squad for that yet, only the week before training session (which would make Barbeary ineligible to play the first game if he was selected in it)