Tigers v La Rochelle (A) - Champions Cup - Sunday 14th January 2024 - KO - 3-15pm

[mightymouse]

In hindsight we were never going to beat that team. The likes of Skelton, Antonio, Bougaritt, Alldritt, Botia are just immense, and their power is difficult to control.. add in a handy set of backs and you’re up against from the start.
What I cannot forgive is a) all the errors when you are in the red zone and b) constantly giving tbe ball back. The worst example was their try just before half time. Big George had just scored and got us back into the contest. From the restart we have a breakdown with ball at the back . You just have to run the clock for about 30 seconds with max 2 phases and hoof it into touch when it hits 40 … what happens? Youngs kicks it back down their throat! A minute later it’s 21 - 7 going in at half time instead of 14. - 7 .. big difference!

[Bptiger25]

The team just doesn’t seem like a side that knows what’s going on , the game plan seems like the forwards get it but the backs don’t see it . I just think the coach is not a good fit coming from down under , the side just never seems to gel week in week out , players can’t pass to another player , then players can’t catch it , it’s seems like a shambles, just my take

[Grumpy of Crumbie]

The saddest thing for me is that this once great tournament, arguably the envy of the rugby playing world is in danger of slipping down the priority list for anyone but the Irish and French teams. If you remove Saracens from the equation for obvious reasons only two English sides have appeared in the final since Tigers were last there in 2009. I suspect the introduction of the South African sides is an attempt to break the dominance of the French and Irish. The change of format from the four teams in a group playing home and away has also taken something away but again is probably an attempt to provide more opportunity.

English rugby is now starting to understand the frustration of the Welsh and Scots, with any chance of winning this competition becoming close to an impossibility. Of course you have to compete with what you have and strive to build a team capable of being the best it can and competing at the top table, but reality says this is becoming more and more difficult. It’s already looking more and more like a ‘Leicester City’ moment will be required before anything other than an Irish or French name appears on the trophy.

This may sound like sour grapes and a bit of a moan after a bad result for Tigers but it’s more about the bigger picture and re-igniting the tournament. Sadly if it continues the ability to attract top players, big crowds and generate income from competitive games will continue to diminish.

Add to all of this the current RFU proposals to ‘re-structure’ the English game, more control over players, the precarious financial position of English clubs and in my opinion English rugby is on a downward spiral. The longer that continues the more difficult it is to stop.

[DeadlyDunc]

The saddest thing for me is that this once great tournament, arguably the envy of the rugby playing world is in danger of slipping down the priority list for anyone but the Irish and French teams. If you remove Saracens from the equation for obvious reasons only two English sides have appeared in the final since Tigers were last there in 2009. I suspect the introduction of the South African sides is an attempt to break the dominance of the French and Irish. The change of format from the four teams in a group playing home and away has also taken something away but again is probably an attempt to provide more opportunity.

English rugby is now starting to understand the frustration of the Welsh and Scots, with any chance of winning this competition becoming close to an impossibility. Of course you have to compete with what you have and strive to build a team capable of being the best it can and competing at the top table, but reality says this is becoming more and more difficult. It’s already looking more and more like a ‘Leicester City’ moment will be required before anything other than an Irish or French name appears on the trophy.

This may sound like sour grapes and a bit of a moan after a bad result for Tigers but it’s more about the bigger picture and re-igniting the tournament. Sadly if it continues the ability to attract top players, big crowds and generate income from competitive games will continue to diminish.

Add to all of this the current RFU proposals to ‘re-structure’ the English game, more control over players, the precarious financial position of English clubs and in my opinion English rugby is on a downward spiral. The longer that continues the more difficult it is to stop.

I think for a lot of the top English teams if you have your best XV available then you have a chance against anyone - the issue is that having your best XV avaialble every week is slim to none. Our second string is really compettive in the Prem but not to the level required against the best in Europe which is in part due to the salary cap restricting what you can afford. We've done well bringing through 7-8+ from the academy into a starting 23 rather than buying in - without that you've got no chance.

I'd back the following to give a game to anyone in Europe - yesterday we were missing almost our entire first choice backline (those in bold) albeit some through decisions around rotation or resting.

Cronin Montoya Cole
Martin Chessum
Hanro Wiese Reffell
JVP
Handre
Kata Kelly/Scott
OHC Steward Watson

Bench - Dolly / Clare, van Wyk, Heyes, Wells/Henderson, Rogerson/Hatherall/Cracknell, Youngs, Shillcock, Porter

[Lutontiger]

At least one of La Rochelle’s players has helped us pass the censor as in Bougarit, we lost!

[AViewFromLe2]

I've not read the thread, but i suspect reactions will be a mixture of sensible stuff and wild hot takes with wild recriminations. IMO I just can't get angry over yesterday, i am incredibly disappointed by the mad 20 minutes in the second half, but the gulf in class caused by the gulf in resources makes the game almost meaningless to judge properly. The circa £5m gap in spending capacity equates to 10 Julian Montoya's - that is always going to make a huge difference.

Last week we deservedly beat the English champions, a week later we got duffed up by the European champions. To me it shows we are a decent side, but like all the English clubs, we sit in the second tier of European clubs. There is an Elite Tier at the top that has Leinster, Toulouse, LAR & Bordeaux, and when they turn it on like all three did this weekend, no one in the second tier can live with it.

As result, I don't think we are defined by this week, in the same way Quins are not defined by being thrashed by Toulouse before Christmas.

[Wellscity]

Be honest - we were beaten up, out muscled and lacking some big units.
We have fit players with speed. The French have big units with a power game.
Bout time we increased the salary cap to allow English clubs to complete on a level playing field.
And sorry - my whinge - but since when has South Africa been a European country My A level Geography tells me otherwise.

[GB72]

Be honest - we were beaten up, out muscled and lacking some big units.
We have fit players with speed. The French have big units with a power game.
Bout time we increased the salary cap to allow English clubs to complete on a level playing field.
And sorry - my whinge - but since when has South Africa been a European country My A level Geography tells me otherwise.

You say we should increase the salary cap but I am not sure how we or any other club pay for it. We lost basically £1 Million pounds last year on a reduced salary cap. Other clubs reported losses of 3-4 times that. It would be great to be able to spend what the French clubs to but the reality is we do not have the money to do this. Increase the salary cap and you may see clubs with a sugar daddy with deep pockets spend to compete but all that this would do would see a couple of clubs being able to compete in Europe as well as walk to the Premiership title.

[Big Dai]

+1

No point chasing a Ferrari with an MGB

More like a Reliant Robin

Three wheels on my wagon…….!!

Definitely showing some age there! I was just trying to draw the analogy between something very expensive, up to date, and race tuned being pursued by technology, which although worthy enough in its day, has now become obsolete and virtually stone age in comparison.

[fentiger]

Be honest - we were beaten up, out muscled and lacking some big units.
We have fit players with speed. The French have big units with a power game.
Bout time we increased the salary cap to allow English clubs to complete on a level playing field.
And sorry - my whinge - but since when has South Africa been a European country My A level Geography tells me otherwise.

You say we should increase the salary cap but I am not sure how we or any other club pay for it. We lost basically £1 Million pounds last year on a reduced salary cap. Other clubs reported losses of 3-4 times that. It would be great to be able to spend what the French clubs to but the reality is we do not have the money to do this. Increase the salary cap and you may see clubs with a sugar daddy with deep pockets spend to compete but all that this would do would see a couple of clubs being able to compete in Europe as well as walk to the Premiership title.

I think that the RFU should invest some of their cash back into the pro and semi pro game. Let's say they gave each Premiership club £3m and each Championship club £1m, this to be scrutinised as spend only on players with a max of x per player. I'm sure they would say they can't afford it but pretty sure they can!

[Tigerbeat]

Be honest - we were beaten up, out muscled and lacking some big units.
We have fit players with speed. The French have big units with a power game.
Bout time we increased the salary cap to allow English clubs to complete on a level playing field.
And sorry - my whinge - but since when has South Africa been a European country My A level Geography tells me otherwise.

You say we should increase the salary cap but I am not sure how we or any other club pay for it. We lost basically £1 Million pounds last year on a reduced salary cap. Other clubs reported losses of 3-4 times that. It would be great to be able to spend what the French clubs to but the reality is we do not have the money to do this. Increase the salary cap and you may see clubs with a sugar daddy with deep pockets spend to compete but all that this would do would see a couple of clubs being able to compete in Europe as well as walk to the Premiership title.

The RFU do not have the money to fund the whole game and made big losses during COVID and also staff members were made redundant. The game is not in a good place at the moment and would not be surprised to see other clubs go under.

I think that the RFU should invest some of their cash back into the pro and semi pro game. Let's say they gave each Premiership club £3m and each Championship club £1m, this to be scrutinised as spend only on players with a max of x per player. I'm sure they would say they can't afford it but pretty sure they can!

[GB72]

You say we should increase the salary cap but I am not sure how we or any other club pay for it. We lost basically £1 Million pounds last year on a reduced salary cap. Other clubs reported losses of 3-4 times that. It would be great to be able to spend what the French clubs to but the reality is we do not have the money to do this. Increase the salary cap and you may see clubs with a sugar daddy with deep pockets spend to compete but all that this would do would see a couple of clubs being able to compete in Europe as well as walk to the Premiership title.

The RFU do not have the money to fund the whole game and made big losses during COVID and also staff members were made redundant. The game is not in a good place at the moment and would not be surprised to see other clubs go under.

I think that the RFU should invest some of their cash back into the pro and semi pro game. Let's say they gave each Premiership club £3m and each Championship club £1m, this to be scrutinised as spend only on players with a max of x per player. I'm sure they would say they can't afford it but pretty sure they can!

That is my concern, lost another club and the league ceases to become viable unless there is someone to step in and fill the 10th spot. Without that, the professional game in England is in real trouble. I could see 2-4 clubs being invited to joint the URC if that did happen but really I dread to think where we may end up if another club goes.

We are at a time when clubs, if anything, need to dramatically cut spending and focus on getting solid footings in the domestic game rather than attempting to keep up with the French and Irish teams. The French have everything in place, big support and a strong TV deal with a company that wants to support rugby as well as not having the shadow of Premier League football hanging over everything Whilst Ireland must have similar revenue to the RFU but only have 4 teams to support financially.

I think that one thing that cannot be underestimated is the impact of football in this country. It is so big and those massive TV and advertising deals drain potential revenue from other sports whilst the fact that media (TV, Print and Social) is so focused on everything football that there is little hope of promoting the game to anyone not already interested. As an example, I would suspect that most rugby fans have a football club they follow but I suspect a very low percentage of football fans could even name a rugby club.

[Tiglon]

I've not read the thread, but i suspect reactions will be a mixture of sensible stuff and wild hot takes with wild recriminations. IMO I just can't get angry over yesterday, i am incredibly disappointed by the mad 20 minutes in the second half, but the gulf in class caused by the gulf in resources makes the game almost meaningless to judge properly. The circa £5m gap in spending capacity equates to 10 Julian Montoya's - that is always going to make a huge difference.

Last week we deservedly beat the English champions, a week later we got duffed up by the European champions. To me it shows we are a decent side, but like all the English clubs, we sit in the second tier of European clubs. There is an Elite Tier at the top that has Leinster, Toulouse, LAR & Bordeaux, and when they turn it on like all three did this weekend, no one in the second tier can live with it.

As result, I don't think we are defined by this week, in the same way Quins are not defined by being thrashed by Toulouse before Christmas.

Sensible summary. Some disappointing errors, but with the amount of pressure applied by a huge La Rochelle team playing at their best, you can almost understand it.

I do feel the Pollard kick to touch was out before the flag, but you put it that close and there's always a risk. Couple of high tackles missed by the officials, despite multiple replays, but would have had no bearing on the outcome.

Money talks, and near enough double the salary cap, at home, with 1st team against mix of 1st and 2nds is a bit of a mismatch. La Rochelle are, when at their best, head and shoulders above everyone bar Leinster.

For those saying increase the cap further - no thanks, I'd like to have a domestic league in a few years time.

[Scuttle]

More like a Reliant Robin

Three wheels on my wagon…….!!

Definitely showing some age there! I was just trying to draw the analogy between something very expensive, up to date, and race tuned being pursued by technology, which although worthy enough in its day, has now become obsolete and virtually stone age in

[westwinds31]

All the champion sides are masters at slowing opposition ball down and La Rochelle have also perfected this. Once Skelton has tackled you, he then lies on you for a further couple of seconds, enough to stop any clear out or quick ball. The backs that should have been aligned to attack, then have to re-align and by the time the ball comes out, the defence has re-set and are up in your faces. Then you're on the back foot and that's where errors occur. Having said that, I don't think our clear outs were great. The amount of times a one-out runner got isolated was criminal.

On the plus side, Martin and Chessum are forming a lethal partnership. Chessum in particular has noticeably picked up his work rate and aggression in the carry. Martin is just Martin. Long may it continue.