Nottingham Rugby Club

[Rugbygramps]

With ringfencing and with drawl of financial assistance when clubs were trying to attract investors, the Championship has faced an up hilll struggle, but rest assured there are clubs ready and waiting to enter the Premiership, what happened to Jersey was nothing short of criminal neglect by the RFU in the handling of the re structuring they are currently making a mess of. The French have proper governance of their club game with proper support for their league structure, from this their national team has benefitted, unlike the English model which has seen us regress.

I’m sorry to disagree with you but I’m unsure how you can say there are clubs ready and waiting to enter the premiership, when they fall hugely short on the playing side, and are struggling to attract sufficient crowds, and there is no public interest.
Even if there were such clubs, which imo there aren’t, there at least as many who will never get higher than the championship, nor do they wish to.
Whilst it is proper and correct that the RFU carry much of the can, I think there are some clubs that would benefit from a restructuring for example geographical

[GB72]

I do have to agree on this point. At present there is no interest in the championship. The Prem needs clubs that are going to raise the profile of the game and clubs that can at least threaten to bring 10000 through the gate every week and bring at least 5000 through regularly.

If you promote clubs with lower interest, budget and attendance than Newcastle, how are they ever going to survive. The only chance a Championship club would have would be if they had someone bankrolling them to the tune of several million pounds every year just to start catching up with current clubs and that does not include investment in infrastructure, training and academy facilities. The current Prem clubs cannot make the figures work with all of that in place and so how is a promoted side able to do better whilst also potentially dooming an established club to ruin by relegation.

At present you literally could not give the TV rights away to the championship and that pretty much sums up the current commercial value of the league.

I would love to see a strong championship with promotion and relegation but aside from perhaps Ealing and that is only a possibility, who could even think to challenge a full strength prem side or secure the funding to recruit a team to make any sort of challenge and then they would be back in the championship with Premiership level wages to pay.

I do not know what the answer is, I have no idea. The RFU made proposals which were rejected (no idea if they were fair or not) but I hear nothing from the other direction save for keep it as it is, fund us more and let us get promoted, which are all fair but there does not seem to be any proposal to make the championship anything more than it is now. Surely the championship needs to make itself a viable league with media interest first before thinking about the next step.

[tigerburnie]

It's a double edged sword isn't it, outside of the premiership, the interest is lower as the national television coverage is lower, get a club into the top level and the local interest will rise. Coventry are hitting the 5000 gates on occasion and I am sure were they to get promoted, ie not some franchise buying their way in, then I am confident they will be able to give it their best shot. You seem to be forgetting, not that long ago clubs like Harlequins, Northampton, Bristol were Championship clubs, Newcastle were often in that league, Saracens(for different reasons) were also there, and none won all their games, indeed it took years for Briz to climb out of the league.
Allowing Wasps another shot will suddenly increase their gates to fulfil your criteria? of course they won't. they never have had large crowds, at any of their grounds, indeed Saracens rarely sell out their small ground.
England (and Scotland and now it seems also Wales) are soccer mad, rugby will not attract huge crowds, even the international games are not always selling out, the game is a minority sport, it will not attract huge investment either, many are getting hot under the collar about the franchises, I will be astonished anyone can find an investor in a broken sport.
Nottingham and their fellow league friends need to be given the opportunity to try, you cannot become a NIMBY protecting your club and looking down your noses at them. When Tigers had to fight relegation, they fought with Newcastle and won, the Falcons came back again because they fought on the field of play to be promoted back to the top league, had they not won the championship would you have said no to the club who did win the Championship?

[Rugbygramps]

It is a double edged sword a the situation is far from ideal.
For all the clubs you mentioned, there is a London Welsh, West Hartlepool, Richmond, on top of Wasps, Worcester, Irish and Jersey.

I’m sure the championship clubs have the will to survive at the highest level, I’m not convinced the current league structures assist that.

[GB72]

It's a double edged sword isn't it, outside of the premiership, the interest is lower as the national television coverage is lower, get a club into the top level and the local interest will rise. Coventry are hitting the 5000 gates on occasion and I am sure were they to get promoted, ie not some franchise buying their way in, then I am confident they will be able to give it their best shot. You seem to be forgetting, not that long ago clubs like Harlequins, Northampton, Bristol were Championship clubs, Newcastle were often in that league, Saracens(for different reasons) were also there, and none won all their games, indeed it took years for Briz to climb out of the league.
Allowing Wasps another shot will suddenly increase their gates to fulfil your criteria? of course they won't. they never have had large crowds, at any of their grounds, indeed Saracens rarely sell out their small ground.
England (and Scotland and now it seems also Wales) are soccer mad, rugby will not attract huge crowds, even the international games are not always selling out, the game is a minority sport, it will not attract huge investment either, many are getting hot under the collar about the franchises, I will be astonished anyone can find an investor in a broken sport.
Nottingham and their fellow league friends need to be given the opportunity to try, you cannot become a NIMBY protecting your club and looking down your noses at them. When Tigers had to fight relegation, they fought with Newcastle and won, the Falcons came back again because they fought on the field of play to be promoted back to the top league, had they not won the championship would you have said no to the club who did win the Championship?

It is I agree. Sadly now relegation would potentially spell the end for some clubs and so I would take into account whether the bird in the hand is worth the 2 in the bush. I would certainly not have a position beyond there being a play off between top and bottom for the place in the Prem as if you cannot beat the bottom club in a home and away fixture for a place then you have little chance against the rest.

Taking Nottingham as an example, how can you have a Premiership club with a ground on a flood plain where it cannot get full insurance. Can you imagine the chaos with TV, fixtures etc that would be caused if a club had to shut down for several weeks or even longer. You are also looking at a club that has to crowd fund for £50k. That is a sad state of affairs brought about by many issues, not least of which if the RFU, but on that sort of financial basis, where will they fund the several million pounds they will need to fund even a slightly competitive team.

My concern is that nobody has any interest in televising the championship. On that basis, and not a rugby one necessarily, I do feel that the league is failing in that it is not promoting or marketing its product enough to garner any media interest at all. I would certainly like to hear how they propose to change that as it really is an important factor. If a prem club is relegated, how many sponsors and backers will stay around if there is no media coverage what so ever.

I am certainly not looking down my noses at anyone but I am a realist and, in all honesty, I do not think that rugby can maintain the Prem let alone the championship. Honestly, I see 4 or 5 clubs surviving long term and finding a place in a combined league.

[Scott1]

It's a double edged sword isn't it, outside of the premiership, the interest is lower as the national television coverage is lower, get a club into the top level and the local interest will rise. Coventry are hitting the 5000 gates on occasion and I am sure were they to get promoted, ie not some franchise buying their way in, then I am confident they will be able to give it their best shot. You seem to be forgetting, not that long ago clubs like Harlequins, Northampton, Bristol were Championship clubs, Newcastle were often in that league, Saracens(for different reasons) were also there, and none won all their games, indeed it took years for Briz to climb out of the league.
Allowing Wasps another shot will suddenly increase their gates to fulfil your criteria? of course they won't. they never have had large crowds, at any of their grounds, indeed Saracens rarely sell out their small ground.
England (and Scotland and now it seems also Wales) are soccer mad, rugby will not attract huge crowds, even the international games are not always selling out, the game is a minority sport, it will not attract huge investment either, many are getting hot under the collar about the franchises, I will be astonished anyone can find an investor in a broken sport.
Nottingham and their fellow league friends need to be given the opportunity to try, you cannot become a NIMBY protecting your club and looking down your noses at them. When Tigers had to fight relegation, they fought with Newcastle and won, the Falcons came back again because they fought on the field of play to be promoted back to the top league, had they not won the championship would you have said no to the club who did win the Championship?

It is I agree. Sadly now relegation would potentially spell the end for some clubs and so I would take into account whether the bird in the hand is worth the 2 in the bush. I would certainly not have a position beyond there being a play off between top and bottom for the place in the Prem as if you cannot beat the bottom club in a home and away fixture for a place then you have little chance against the rest.

Taking Nottingham as an example, how can you have a Premiership club with a ground on a flood plain where it cannot get full insurance. Can you imagine the chaos with TV, fixtures etc that would be caused if a club had to shut down for several weeks or even longer. You are also looking at a club that has to crowd fund for £50k. That is a sad state of affairs brought about by many issues, not least of which if the RFU, but on that sort of financial basis, where will they fund the several million pounds they will need to fund even a slightly competitive team.

My concern is that nobody has any interest in televising the championship. On that basis, and not a rugby one necessarily, I do feel that the league is failing in that it is not promoting or marketing its product enough to garner any media interest at all. I would certainly like to hear how they propose to change that as it really is an important factor. If a prem club is relegated, how many sponsors and backers will stay around if there is no media coverage what so ever.

I am certainly not looking down my noses at anyone but I am a realist and, in all honesty, I do not think that rugby can maintain the Prem let alone the championship. Honestly, I see 4 or 5 clubs surviving long term and finding a place in a combined league.

Completely agree with your last part. There will be some kind of B and I league in the end ,maybe 2 tier.

[Darc Tiger]

Their fixture is postponed tonight

[TigerFeetSteve]

Tigers on FB have re-advertised our friendly against Nottingham, which seems like both clubs have confidence in the game going ahead.

[jgriffin]

Nottingham's troubles started in the 90s before professionalism. They were on the slide whem my son started in the u12s. They had a golden core of juniors but no development structure and a county/region only interested in selecting independent school boys. The grounds were worth far more as housing.

[tigerburnie]

Talking mostly about the amateur days, but Nottingham didn't seem to have many junior clubs to feed them whereas Leicester had a lot. I can remember Old Paviors and Notts Casuals from my playing days, not many more and whilst Nottingham were in the merit table with the Tigers, they seemed to be ranked along with Nuneaton, Burton and Rugby rather than with Tigers, Northampton or Bedford.

[Rugbygramps]

Talking mostly about the amateur days, but Nottingham didn't seem to have many junior clubs to feed them whereas Leicester had a lot. I can remember Old Paviors and Notts Casuals from my playing days, not many more and whilst Nottingham were in the merit table with the Tigers, they seemed to be ranked along with Nuneaton, Burton and Rugby rather than with Tigers, Northampton or Bedford.

I think the same can be said of many counties, if anything Leicester has too many clubs, but things went that way, start a new club rather than play for a 3rd or 4th team.
I remember a dozen years ago hosting a touring junior team from DMP. At the time Hinckley, Lions and South Leicester were all competing in the national leagues, and they were gob smacked when I was explaining the proximity of the 3 clubs as well as the plethora of others

[LE18]

Talking mostly about the amateur days, but Nottingham didn't seem to have many junior clubs to feed them whereas Leicester had a lot. I can remember Old Paviors and Notts Casuals from my playing days, not many more and whilst Nottingham were in the merit table with the Tigers, they seemed to be ranked along with Nuneaton, Burton and Rugby rather than with Tigers, Northampton or Bedford.

Mansfield, Long Eaton, Beeston, I seem to remember playing at those venues?

[tigerburnie]

Schools all played rugby back then, at Wigston High, it was rugby or cross country running in the winter, or a game of "pirates" in the gym if the weather was really bad, vivid memories of Tom Pell(Tigers centre at the time)chasing us around on a push bike with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth. Those playing fields are now a housing estate, if memory serves me right I think there were 42 rugby clubs in Leicestershire at one time.

[teds]

If you promote clubs with lower interest, budget and attendance than Newcastle, how are they ever going to survive. The only chance a Championship club would have would be if they had someone bankrolling them to the tune of several million pounds every year just to start catching up with current clubs and that does not include investment in infrastructure, training and academy facilities.

Are there any premiership clubs that haven’t relied on someone bankrolling them to the tune of several million pounds every year? Moreover the premiership shares mean an unfair playing field for anyone coming up from the championship.

At present you literally could not give the TV rights away to the championship and that pretty much sums up the current commercial value of the league.

At present, are the championship clubs are even allowed to negotiate any broadcasting deals? While it’s likely the market would be limited, can you really claim any evidence for your statement here. I suspect not.

I do not know what the answer is, I have no idea. The RFU made proposals which were rejected (no idea if they were fair or not) but I hear nothing from the other direction save for keep it as it is, fund us more and let us get promoted, which are all fair but there does not seem to be any proposal to make the championship anything more than it is now.

The championship clubs have asked for a chance to share their proposals to grow their league. It sounds like at least you’d be willing to listen., but as far as I can see the RFU won’t even go through the motions of giving the championship clubs a hearing.


It sounds like the only two successful second level leagues are in France and Japan. We should look at their funding models and see if we can learn anything. Championship rugby is a great product

[mol2]

The Premiership has tried to function as a closed shop for years, with promoted sides having to achieve standards that, at the time, many of the existing sides didn’t meet.

As for attendances and being able to survive in the top division, that is probably not too relevant. Whilst takings from home games for sides like Tigers are not insignificant, the reality is that for most teams, sponsorship/sugar daddies and TV revenue is more important in terms of overall income.

Had the premiership had a more forward thinking approach to promotion and relegation with a “fairer share” to the second division it may not be seen as so catastrophic financially.

Indeed a top drawer division with 2 parallel second divisions including the Welsh teams as was would have been far better. 2 down from the Premiership with 1 up from the other 2.