BengalTiger wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 5:43 am
The issue here is that Saracens have been given a helping hand to keep their stars, other clubs do not seem to get the same help.
I can't imagine that Lewis Ludlum, after his showing in the world cup, would not be offered a central contract but now too late.
Saracens have been operating with two marque players when everyone else has to do with one, done by gaming the system but still an advantage.
It may be perception, but it smells to me, after all the Saracens stars were gathered together under the unresolved (to me at least) shady salary cap breaches.
I’m surprised they have George one purely down to his age, but not with Itoje.
Is Ludlam really England first choice ?
Will people ever let go of Sarries or take every opportunity to twist the knife.
I’m sure if Tigers got help with a couple of players there would be no complaints on here
BengalTiger wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 5:43 am
The issue here is that Saracens have been given a helping hand to keep their stars, other clubs do not seem to get the same help.
I can't imagine that Lewis Ludlum, after his showing in the world cup, would not be offered a central contract but now too late.
Saracens have been operating with two marque players when everyone else has to do with one, done by gaming the system but still an advantage.
It may be perception, but it smells to me, after all the Saracens stars were gathered together under the unresolved (to me at least) shady salary cap breaches.
Does a leopard change its spots?
In reality Sarries were only caught because they were so blatant. Ultimately they didn't open their books to the League, why? Perhaps to front load some of the existing contracts? Perhaps some of those are coming to an end?
The following is not specific to Sarries but making payments outside of the club's sphere to be paid by other businesses overseas so they don't appear on accounts in the UK?
I am not saying this is happening but it could well be the case that one or more club is doing this.
Top level rugby in the amateur era was hardly innocent with some players having paid jobs with club benefactors that they never had to attend bar a token appearance to put on a show for the big wigs. Evading the salary cap is just an extension of this.
The league has the power to sanction sides that exceed the cap or refuse to open their books but they have no power to ask me to do so or any business in the UK or overseas. So how easy would it be to find a salary top up paid to a South African player by "Tubthumper breweries" South African subsidiary to a business in which the player had a stake? Entirely legal providing the player pays tax on his UK earnings but won't be liable for much if he takes non-dom status, certainly taking his overseas earnings out of the equation and out of sight of the League.
BengalTiger wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 5:43 am
The issue here is that Saracens have been given a helping hand to keep their stars, other clubs do not seem to get the same help.
We were given a helping hand to keep Watson.
Not quite the same as Watson was out of contract so anybody could have signed him but RFU did. Out of contract again he could have signed for anyone but chose Tigers.
And technically Itoje is out of contract so any English club can put an offer to him to add to the RFU contract.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
Apparently one of the reasons Ludlum chose to move was that he could not get assurances that he would get one of the England contracts. Trust me, if he thought he had a strong future with England, he wouldn't have left.
Not quite the same as Watson was out of contract so anybody could have signed him but RFU did. Out of contract again he could have signed for anyone but chose Tigers.
And technically Itoje is out of contract so any English club can put an offer to him to add to the RFU contract.
Difference being Watsons contracts were separate were as Itoje's run at the same time
A further complication is who does Borthwick want to have in his squad for the RFU to potentially contract?
The team he may pick for the 6N will be different from the recent World Cup and some of the current senior players that may well be in the 6N will simply be too old for the WC.
Do we see a 33 year old Jamie George contending at the age of 37? Likewise Farrell, Cole and so on.
The 150k doesn’t seem to be enough to to persuade those who cannot get a high paid contract in England.
Players from NZ seem to hop over to France between cups and I guess the difficult call for England is to either spend 2 years with fewer of their stars or backtrack on their non selection policy of overseas players.
Rationally, they should accept foreign based players rather than take a punt on paying for contracts for players who may not be in contention come the nitty gritty and at least give Borthwick a full choice to build his side. I expect the RFU will see the central contracts as a way of taking power back from the clubs, when their hand may be better served by allowing players to play in the best sides without trying to control the premiership teams.
Power or pragmatism?
BengalTiger wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 5:43 am
The issue here is that Saracens have been given a helping hand to keep their stars, other clubs do not seem to get the same help.
I can't imagine that Lewis Ludlum, after his showing in the world cup, would not be offered a central contract but now too late.
Saracens have been operating with two marque players when everyone else has to do with one, done by gaming the system but still an advantage.
It may be perception, but it smells to me, after all the Saracens stars were gathered together under the unresolved (to me at least) shady salary cap breaches.
I’m surprised they have George one purely down to his age, but not with Itoje.
Is Ludlam really England first choice ?
Will people ever let go of Sarries or take every opportunity to twist the knife.
I’m sure if Tigers got help with a couple of players there would be no complaints on here
The answer to your question is probably No, but I guess if we were given 2 and sarries none, then I bet Sarries would be moaning. Touche.
BengalTiger wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 5:43 am
The issue here is that Saracens have been given a helping hand to keep their stars, other clubs do not seem to get the same help.
I can't imagine that Lewis Ludlum, after his showing in the world cup, would not be offered a central contract but now too late.
Saracens have been operating with two marque players when everyone else has to do with one, done by gaming the system but still an advantage.
It may be perception, but it smells to me, after all the Saracens stars were gathered together under the unresolved (to me at least) shady salary cap breaches.
I’m surprised they have George one purely down to his age, but not with Itoje.
Is Ludlam really England first choice ?
Will people ever let go of Sarries or take every opportunity to twist the knife.
I’m sure if Tigers got help with a couple of players there would be no complaints on here
The answer to your question is probably No, but I guess if we were given 2 and sarries none, then I bet Sarries would be moaning. Touche.
I’m surprised they have George one purely down to his age, but not with Itoje.
Is Ludlam really England first choice ?
Will people ever let go of Sarries or take every opportunity to twist the knife.
I’m sure if Tigers got help with a couple of players there would be no complaints on here
The answer to your question is probably No, but I guess if we were given 2 and sarries none, then I bet Sarries would be moaning. Touche.
Be interesting to know if the central contract runs for the same length of time as the club contract.
I recall Jonah Holmes being enticed away to further his Welsh career, join Newport Gwent Dragons on a club + Wales contract, then Wales decide Jonah is surplus to requirement and suddenly the guy is out of work as Newport cannot afford him. Fortunately he secured a move to Ealing in the Championship but a far cry from the glories he anticipated when joined Leicester and achieved international selection.
Farmboy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:12 am
Not quite the same as Watson was out of contract so anybody could have signed him but RFU did. Out of contract again he could have signed for anyone but chose Tigers.
And technically Itoje is out of contract so any English club can put an offer to him to add to the RFU contract.
Difference being Watsons contracts were separate were as Itoje's run at the same time
Which is the key difference. Watson was solely and RFU employee from the expiration of his contract last season until turning up for work on 1st December. There was no "hybrid" about it.
johnthegriff wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:10 pm
Be interesting to know if the central contract runs for the same length of time as the club contract.
I recall Jonah Holmes being enticed away to further his Welsh career, join Newport Gwent Dragons on a club + Wales contract, then Wales decide Jonah is surplus to requirement and suddenly the guy is out of work as Newport cannot afford him. Fortunately he secured a move to Ealing in the Championship but a far cry from the glories he anticipated when joined Leicester and achieved international selection.
I remember posting at the time that Holmes had made a big mistake.
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
Presumably he wanted more money than Tigers had in the coffers or salary cap to employ him at that stage.
Presumably Borthwick wanted him for England (injuries didn't let that happen) and no English club had the money he wanted so the RFU stepped in and paid him to be a free agent until the time Tigers were in a position to take him on.
Arguably he had the first central contract?
johnthegriff wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:10 pm
Be interesting to know if the central contract runs for the same length of time as the club contract.
I recall Jonah Holmes being enticed away to further his Welsh career, join Newport Gwent Dragons on a club + Wales contract, then Wales decide Jonah is surplus to requirement and suddenly the guy is out of work as Newport cannot afford him. Fortunately he secured a move to Ealing in the Championship but a far cry from the glories he anticipated when joined Leicester and achieved international selection.
I remember posting at the time that Holmes had made a big mistake.
I think everyone but his agent could see it coming.
