Tigers v Stade Francais (A) - Champions Cup - Sunday 17th December 2023 - KO:5-30pm

[LE18]

I was there yesterday but feel the Exeter and Bath games are far more important.
Realistically we need to get points from both those Premiership games.
Exeter and Bath look good this season and the awful weather at Bath helped us to win.
For Stade I’d see it as a chance to give Shilcock a start at Fly half as I doubt Pollard will go the whole season injury free. Montoya and Steward need rests too along with Hanro.

Why do you think we need to get points, oh to get into Europe. I think there is a bit of a merry go round there, catch 22.

[tigerburnie]

I really like your thinking here and I completely agree, especially about Shillcock.

The "star players" are with Tigers to play in the European Champions Cup (I guess one of the reasons they signed) so we have to play them in some games... but they also need a rest, and we IMHO should concentrate on the league. This season, I believe we have a far better chance in that, especially bearing in mind the games we have to play in Europe - we are , give or take, playing the top 4 teams in Europe.

Totally agree we should prioritise the league and give some youngsters a run while still having enough experience to give it a good shot.
It was interesting listening to John Dobson and Bob Skinstad on comms that it wasn’t what some of the Stormers youngsters have done but what they will be doing in 2 or 3 years time particularly the 8 and 13

Absolutely. I have the same feeling with players like Ilione and Chessum jnr - how good they could become, and how much they would learn playing with "star players" like Wiese, Montoya and maybe Reffell in Europe... Shillcock is 26, and I think he is still to reach his potential.

Whilst young Chessum looked good with Leicester Lions in Nat1, I think the step up to Paris in the European Cup is at least three steps too far just now, but we will see.

[Ze Stade Fan]

Nika Amashukeli at the whistle.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Nika Amashukeli at the whistle.

One of the best refs around. Can be very picky at times but pretty consistent.

[AViewFromLe2]

Really struggling with the concept of not taking Europe seriously, especially after the great result on Sunday. Beating Stormers now means we probably only need one more win to qualify, and if we do beat Stade, then it possibly opens up finishing in the top 2 in the pool and a home R16 game, and even more ambitiously a home QF if we were to finish top in this pool. Whilst that sounds fanciful, two of Stade, Stormers and La Rochelle could be winless after the first two games depending on how results land. Beating Stade provides us with an awesome opportunity to progress in this competition, I don't believe we should turn that down. Relying on beating Leinster at home and not taking the away games seriously, is too big a risk, and would really undermine the great achievement of last Sunday.

I also don't understand the mentality of why we should not take Europe seriously. If it is too big a distraction to our league hopes, then why did we enter it in the first place? We should ask to either not enter or always go into the Challenge Cup if it is too big of an inconvenience for us.

It also makes it harder to recruit elite World Class players if our message is that we're only bothered about the league. Good luck trying to get Jasper to stay for another season if you tell him that. Elite players want to win things, and beat the best. If we aspire to be an elite club then we should act like an elite club, and that means trying to win Europe and not backing out because it sounds too tricky. Good luck trying to sign elite players if our message is that the league takes precedence or we're not fussed by Europe. Our Head Coach, OHC, and numerous other players have all said in the media that they want to win this competition - they would not want to play here if our ambitions did not match theirs.

Our most famous victories have come in this competition and in circumstances where things are against us. In 06/07 we lost the first game at home to Munster, we were told we faced an uphill battle to progress, but we got stuck into it and ended up with one of our most famous nights at Thormond Park - using the logic of some people on here, then that would not have happened as we would have given up after the first game and played our youngsters throughout the group games.

What happens if we were to get an easy pool, and favourable R16 and QF fixtures, but then had to play Leinster and then probably another heavy hitter in the final, would we back out at the semi and play a weakened side as it sounds too hard? No of course not, so why should we do that now? You've got to play the best teams at some point so why not take it seriously.

It is also massively disrespectful to our fans who spends thousands of pounds to travel to France to not play a strong side. It would be pretty gutting if loads of our lot went out there, only for us to not reward them by playing a weakened side.

McKellar can do what he wants, it's his call after all. And if he does play a mix and match side and we still win, then fair play to him and the players selected, but that would be too much of a risk for me given we have made a great start. Not taking Europe seriously to only concentrate on the league, does not sit with the values and philosophies of this club which is to be best at all we do.

[AViewFromLe2]

Oh and one final thing (I promise), we are now on a 4 game winning streak and building momentum and confidence. Why undermine that by playing a weakened side that could possibly suffer a bad defeat to a very strong side? Let the trend be your friend after all!

We do need to consider player welfare, and there does need to be some rotation but we do need to be very careful about not overdoing it here. Any more than 5-6 changes is excessive for me.

[GB72]

I have always had an issue with the way European competition is treated in football.

It seems like clubs put all of the effort in to be in the qualifying positions and then complain about being involved when the do get in.

Yes, some players may need rest but I would far rather clubs went into every competition with the intention being to win rather then just claim the money from qualifying then exit with a whimper.

At the very least, we are playing for club finances. Every stage further we get puts more money in the coffers and so on a totally mercenary level it is worth a shot.

If we get that second win then we may have earned the right to rest players in later matches in the same way that our early losses in the league has meant that we have not earned the right to give people a break.

[KiwiTig]

Valid points GB72 and I agree

[Rugbygramps]

Oh and one final thing (I promise), we are now on a 4 game winning streak and building momentum and confidence. Why undermine that by playing a weakened side that could possibly suffer a bad defeat to a very strong side? Let the trend be your friend after all!

We do need to consider player welfare, and there does need to be some rotation but we do need to be very careful about not overdoing it here. Any more than 5-6 changes is excessive for me.

You make some very good points. The issue imo is that you appear to be taking this game as a one off rather than part of the whole season. I think your point about 5-6 players rotating is fair but I would also mix and match some of Sundays bench to start with those they’re replacing on the bench.
As I’ve previously mentioned we will have 2 training days between returning from France and travelling down to Exeter, I would think that those who picked up knocks v Stormers, Scott, Wiese, Steward, Henderson should be left to rehab as we have high quality replacements for them all.
Public perception is also important. You say go as big as possible, but we pick up knocks, and loose against Exeter and Bath, 2 very winnable games a lot of the progress we have made up the table will be undone, and a lot of fans will be asking why.

If push came to shove I would go :

Brown, Watson, Porter, Kata, OHC, Shilcock, Whitely.
Cronin, Claire, Heyes, Wells, Carter, Rogerson, Reffell, Hatherall

Bench: Montoya, Whitcombe, Cole, Martin, Liebenberg, Youngs, Pollard, Kelly

[ay2oh]

It’s a difficult balance for me. We picked up quite a few injuries on Sunday and if we go full bore this week and pick up more injuries our chances in either competition are gone. Doubt if Wiese, Scott, Henderson or Steward will be fit and Liebenberg and Montoya need a rest.
Regarding Le2’s post whilst the sentiment is solid realistically we have no chance of winning the European Cup as the likes of Leinster, La Rochelle , Racing , Toulouse are miles ahead of where we are especially as some of these teams will rest their players for URC / French games.
IMO would sooner rotate for Stade game and concentrate on Exeter /Bath games.

[AViewFromLe2]

Oh and one final thing (I promise), we are now on a 4 game winning streak and building momentum and confidence. Why undermine that by playing a weakened side that could possibly suffer a bad defeat to a very strong side? Let the trend be your friend after all!

We do need to consider player welfare, and there does need to be some rotation but we do need to be very careful about not overdoing it here. Any more than 5-6 changes is excessive for me.

You make some very good points. The issue imo is that you appear to be taking this game as a one off rather than part of the whole season. I think your point about 5-6 players rotating is fair but I would also mix and match some of Sundays bench to start with those they’re replacing on the bench.
As I’ve previously mentioned we will have 2 training days between returning from France and travelling down to Exeter, I would think that those who picked up knocks v Stormers, Scott, Wiese, Steward, Henderson should be left to rehab as we have high quality replacements for them all.
Public perception is also important. You say go as big as possible, but we pick up knocks, and loose against Exeter and Bath, 2 very winnable games a lot of the progress we have made up the table will be undone, and a lot of fans will be asking why.

If push came to shove I would go :

Brown, Watson, Porter, Kata, OHC, Shilcock, Whitely.
Cronin, Claire, Heyes, Wells, Carter, Rogerson, Reffell, Hatherall

Bench: Montoya, Whitcombe, Cole, Martin, Liebenberg, Youngs, Pollard, Kelly

It is equally possible that we send a weakened side to Stade, and still lose to Exeter and Bath with strong sides. That is actually worse as we've thrown away a great opportunity in Europe and still suffered in the league. Equally, players do get injured in training - Pollard last season, Clare, Dolly and I think Porter this season are all training knocks.

Here's 3 23's for Stade, Exeter and Bath that delivers sensible rotation and gives us a great shot at 3 wins. There are some assumptions about injuries being made, as I don't know how serious they are.

Stade - Cronin, Montoya, Heyes, Chessum, Wells, Hanro, Tommy, Hatherall, Youngs, Pollard, OHC, Kelly, Kata, Watson, Steward - bench of Vanes, Van Wyk, Cole, Martin, Rogerson, Whitely, Shillcock, Bassett

Exeter - Van Wyk, Montoya, Heyes, Martin, Carter, Hatherall, Tommy, Wiese, Youngs, Pollard, Bassett, Kelly, Porter/Scott, Watson, Brown - bench of Vanes/Dolly/Clare, Whitcombe, Hurd, Wells, Rogerson, Whitely, Shillcock, Kata

Bath - Cronin, Montoya, Cole, Chessum, Wells, Hanro, Illione, Wiese, Youngs, Pollard, OHC, Kelly, Scott, Bassett, Steward - bench of Dolly/Clare, Whitcombe, Heyes, Martin, Rogerson, JVP, Shillcock, Watson

The current confirmed injury list is Dolly, Clare, Porter, Cracknell, JVP, Henderson, Scott and possibly Wiese so some may come back into consideration earlier than i have anticipated.

[RunTigerRun]

I think we have the depth to go strong, but also look at protecting anyone who had a knock. Something like: (assuming those who took knocks on Sunday are unavailable)

Shillcock, Watson, Kelly, Kata, OHC, Pollard, Youngs, Hatherell, Reffell, Rogerson, Chessum, Wells, Cole, Montoya, Cronin

Dolly/Clare/Vanes, Whitcombe, Heyes, Martin, Liebenberg/Ilione, Whiteley, Atkinson/Brown, Porter

Covers knocks and a rest potentially to Hanro who is pretty much the only one not to have one yet, without losing any quality and competitiveness. If Bassett and Steward are fine then they can come into it too. Perhaps bench spots instead of Atkinson/Brown and Porter? Same with Wiese having him off the bench would be fun!

If Watson isn’t ready then give Woollett a wing shot or Porter on the wing (personally prefer to see Woollett have a go and Porter come on in the centres). Equally there are the likes of Cokanasiga, Wilkinson, L Chessum etc who would live to try and prove themselves in the top teams. I do believe there is potential to still go strong whilst looking after those who have played a lot/might have had a knock.

For me, that team above is more than capable of winning in Paris.

[Ze Stade Fan]

I think we have the depth to go strong, but also look at protecting anyone who had a knock. Something like: (assuming those who took knocks on Sunday are unavailable)

Shillcock, Watson, Kelly, Kata, OHC, Pollard, Youngs, Hatherell, Reffell, Rogerson, Chessum, Wells, Cole, Montoya, Cronin

Dolly/Clare/Vanes, Whitcombe, Heyes, Martin, Liebenberg/Ilione, Whiteley, Atkinson/Brown, Porter

Covers knocks and a rest potentially to Hanro who is pretty much the only one not to have one yet, without losing any quality and competitiveness. If Bassett and Steward are fine then they can come into it too. Perhaps bench spots instead of Atkinson/Brown and Porter? Same with Wiese having him off the bench would be fun!

If Watson isn’t ready then give Woollett a wing shot or Porter on the wing (personally prefer to see Woollett have a go and Porter come on in the centres). Equally there are the likes of Cokanasiga, Wilkinson, L Chessum etc who would live to try and prove themselves in the top teams. I do believe there is potential to still go strong whilst looking after those who have played a lot/might have had a knock.

For me, that team above is more than capable of winning in Paris.

Paris (or the glorious Stade Français) are a bit of a mystery. A very convincing win over star studded Toulouse and a miserable win against Manu Tuilagied Sharks the week after. We shall see what they are up to at kickoff.

[Rugbygramps]

I think everyone is in agreement that some rotation is desirable/ necessary and the 3 teams LE2 has listed are all excellent. In terms of injuries the only one from Sunday that looked serious was Henderson but we have cover especially if Martin is on the way back.
The other point is of course that all teams are in the same boat. Exeter had a tough excellent win in Toulon, then face a Munster team desperate for a win on Sunday having drawn their home match.
It will be interesting to see how some of their young players react to 3 high profile fixtures in 3 weeks

[AViewFromLe2]

In an ideal world, Henderson would not have picked up an injury so we could rest Chessum this weekend. Equally, in hindsight, we should have rested Hanro for Newcastle so we could have played Rogerson at 6, with Illione on the bench, but we are where we are now on those.

McKellar also has to be mindful of the fact we are still struggling for cohesion, introducing too many changes may be great for player welfare but bad for cohesion, especially with loads of untried combinations.

In short, who would be a HC?!