Return of Champions Cup - Tigers v Stormers - Sunday 10th December 2023

[LE18]

The past couple of seasons we've only been sending B teams to away Euro games as well.

To be honest, the whole format feels a bit broken - lots of mismatches due to ever-growing budget differences and the above. In the past it was possibly my favourite competition, almost every game felt like a test match. Now it's a run through of training matches until the competition really starts when it's just a handful of French teams plus Leinster left.

This used to be the most exciting part of the season, it felt like a step up in intensity when the Heineken Cup matches appeared on the horizon - now it feels like a bit of a break and a rest for the first XV.

It doesn't help that I've grown bored of the format changes in recent years, and I just cannot be bothered to even try to figure out the group stage structure.

I think the competition has lost any sense of consistency and clarity, it's now just a bit confused from a viewers point of view.

Totally agree with everything you have said here.

Plus the vast cost of accomodation for the large squad players/coaches etc.

You will always get a few supporters travelling but just look at time/cost involved by them.

[TigerFeetSteve]

So Stormers games have been like this

28th Oct - Eur
3rd Nov - Eur
11th Nov - Eur
18th Nov - Eur
24th Nov - Eur
2nd Dec - SA
10th Dec - Eur
16th Dec - SA
23rd Dec - SA
30th Dec - SA
13th Jan - SA


So to my mind their full will have been Europe based for all of November, after our game their full squad will be South Africa based.

I suspect very few players from a welfare perspective will have gone from:

Europe 2 weeks ago
South Africa last week
Europe this coming week
South Africa next week

I suspect therefore they have sent half their squad back last week leaving half here in Europe for this game.

So if we look at the team that played Zebre I doubt we'll see many of that 23

Gelant
Skosan (he'll be glad not to return to WR)
Nel
Willemse
Zas
Libbok
Jantjies
Blose
Dweba
Fouche
Smith
Van Heerden
Fourie
Dayimani
Roos

Ventner
Vermaak
Harris
Evans
Theunissen
De Wet
Blommetjies
Hartzenberg



So I'm not an expert on their squad but that is I think most of their big names, maybe likes of Ben Loader retained in Europe?

[Old Hob]

It’s a good point well made that I would expect us to send a shadow side to Paris as the following fixtures v Exeter and Bath are imo more important.
The difference for me is that is a coaching decision as opposed to the effect 2 long haul flights in a week could have on players

I agree with most of this but would point out that, although the flights are long distance, they are in the same time zone so not as debilitating as going west or east.

I still think it's a load of toots.

[wormus]

Do not forget Blommetjies played for Tigers some years ago as a medical joker, I believe and wanted to remain here.
Now I hope Skosan returns and gives us the same display as last time when he was at Saints ~ dropped passes & ones going into touch at least 4x.

[Rugbygramps]

It’s a good point well made that I would expect us to send a shadow side to Paris as the following fixtures v Exeter and Bath are imo more important.
The difference for me is that is a coaching decision as opposed to the effect 2 long haul flights in a week could have on players

I agree with most of this but would point out that, although the flights are long distance, they are in the same time zone so not as debilitating as going west or east.

I still think it's a load of toots.

It is not so much the time zone difference more the effect these flights have on players routines and the fatigue caused simply by travelling. Taking into account getting to airports/hotels at either end they are travelling for 24 hours which means rest day before anything can get done etc

[Rugbygramps]

Note to moderators I’ve made a right Horlicks of this thread title could you please change to something coherent many thanks

[TigerFeetSteve]

It’s a good point well made that I would expect us to send a shadow side to Paris as the following fixtures v Exeter and Bath are imo more important.
The difference for me is that is a coaching decision as opposed to the effect 2 long haul flights in a week could have on players

I agree with most of this but would point out that, although the flights are long distance, they are in the same time zone so not as debilitating as going west or east.

I still think it's a load of toots.

South Africa are 2 hours ahead of us (it's 1 hour during BST)

The other problem though is that Qatar Airways sponsors the URC so guess where they fly via during the URC so rather than go on an airline that flies direct they fly on the sponsors planes via Qatar which adds another timezone to the trip, which is another hour (so three total).

[Old Hob]

It’s a good point well made that I would expect us to send a shadow side to Paris as the following fixtures v Exeter and Bath are imo more important.
The difference for me is that is a coaching decision as opposed to the effect 2 long haul flights in a week could have on players

I agree with most of this but would point out that, although the flights are long distance, they are in the same time zone so not as debilitating as going west or east.

I still think it's a load of toots.

South Africa are 2 hours ahead of us (it's 1 hour during BST)

The other problem though is that Qatar Airways sponsors the URC so guess where they fly via during the URC so rather than go on an airline that flies direct they fly on the sponsors planes via Qatar which adds another timezone to the trip, which is another hour (so three total).

Ah, OK. Didn't know about the diversion round the ringroad. Thanks.

[markharbtiger]

I think Rugby Union has overextended itself in this country - too many competitions which seems worse in a RWC year. This plus steep prices risks fans not attending or worse, walking away from the game altogether. Unfortunately, any rationalisation won't be popular with clubs or those running competitions who need to balance the books now.

[GB72]

I think Rugby Union has overextended itself in this country - too many competitions which seems worse in a RWC year. This plus steep prices risks fans not attending or worse, walking away from the game altogether. Unfortunately, any rationalisation won't be popular with clubs or those running competitions who need to balance the books now.

This is the vicious circle, player welfare demands less games, fans demand lower prices but the clubs are losing money and so we have to look at either more matches, higher prices or slash wages and start looking at all of the big names moving elsewhere.

Unless someone turns up with a mountain of cash to invest, there is no answer to a lose/lose situation.

My hope, and maybe this is not the thread to discuss it on, is that Amazon have lost their football and tennis coverage. The dream is that they try to double down on rugby offering sweet deals to attract the Prem, the URC, the European competitions etc with a view to later aiming for more England matches and the Lions. All of that at far less than the cost of their football package.

[Scott1]

I think Rugby Union has overextended itself in this country - too many competitions which seems worse in a RWC year. This plus steep prices risks fans not attending or worse, walking away from the game altogether. Unfortunately, any rationalisation won't be popular with clubs or those running competitions who need to balance the books now.

This is the vicious circle, player welfare demands less games, fans demand lower prices but the clubs are losing money and so we have to look at either more matches, higher prices or slash wages and start looking at all of the big names moving elsewhere.

Unless someone turns up with a mountain of cash to invest, there is no answer to a lose/lose situation.

My hope, and maybe this is not the thread to discuss it on, is that Amazon have lost their football and tennis coverage. The dream is that they try to double down on rugby offering sweet deals to attract the Prem, the URC, the European competitions etc with a view to later aiming for more England matches and the Lions. All of that at far less than the cost of their football package.

Funny you should mention that but the new football deal has been released. SKY obviously won with BT hoovering up the dregs but i didn’t see Amazon mentioned. I do understand that Amazon are about to agree a deal with PBC (Premier Boxing Champions) and Al Haymon for his stable and dates. Maybe they want to move more into sports themselves

[mightymouse]

Amazon is a far more attractive proposition as a TV consumer than either BT(TNT) or Sky.
It’s cheaper and you get something else worthwhile thrown in for the monthly subscription.
I would look forward to Amazon taking Premiership and all the others. I shall be scrapping BT when my contract ends as it is ridiculously expensive .. and I only watch rugby on it .. most of the rest is rubbish.

[Cagey Tiger]

Amazon is a far more attractive proposition as a TV consumer than either BT(TNT) or Sky.
It’s cheaper and you get something else worthwhile thrown in for the monthly subscription.
I would look forward to Amazon taking Premiership and all the others. I shall be scrapping BT when my contract ends as it is ridiculously expensive .. and I only watch rugby on it .. most of the rest is rubbish.

Having been with BT Sport for a number of years, solely to watch the rugby, I have negotiated a reduction every year and currently pay £16.01 for BT TV with TNT Sports (I do have BT landline and broadband as well, with reductions over standard prices). I do not find that expensive. Living around 45-50 miles away from Welford Road, it was costing me almost that in fuel to go to a single match when I was a season ticket holder a few years back. Also, i have noticed that on TNT Sports on BT TV , as opposed to to via Sky, more games are shown live (4 or sometimes all 5 rather than 3) ,potentially reducing the need to pay for Premiership TV.

[Tigerbeat]

i guess that the TV contract stated a number of live games would be shown. Given the loss of 3 teams, this may be a way of getting the full quota of contracted games shown by having more games on some weekends.

[ourla]

Let’s face it, Rugby is pretty impenetrable to the average sports fan

Not sure that's totally true tbh. I'll grant you there are some specifics that can confuse but you can get the gist and watch the general flow pretty easy. I once sat with my dad watching NFL and had to try and explain what was going on to him. Now that was a challenge.

and the way the Champions Cup is set up doesn’t help matters.

At the risk of going off topic, the sport is destined to fail if the powers that be can’t find a way to make competitions understandable and like football, have the best players available for clubs throughout the season.

Well, the European football competitions have changed a lot over the years and have you not seen how the Prem teams and sometime Championship teams treat the Cup competitions. Wenger used to field a B team even in the final of the League Cup!

Until then no casual observer is going to sit down on a weekend and engage with the sport as none of it makes sense. If you were starting the sport from scratch there is no way you’d even consider the structure we have got now.

When I was a kid Grandstand would have rally car driving and gymnastics. There is so much competition for eyes watching now, plus gaming, plus other leisure activities. Years ago people would be gagging to go to a rugby game at 3pm on a Sunday - now if it's a bit chilly and wet...