French rugby 2023/24

[Robespierre]

France showing what to do, but will the home nations listen? Back at the end of the 90s we were still in the 'almost all white' era where getting anywhere in rugby after 16 meant being at an independent school with the hierarchy likewise. There was a whole generation of non white or working class kids ignored, and no view of talented non rugby kids until the 2010s. Just discussed this tendency yesterday with a cricket/hockey coach, how much talent gets ignored in favour of the connected.

Hit the nail well and truly on the head, jg.

[GB72]

There are so many good things in that article but there is one hurdle that I just cannot see rugby in England clearing.

The French teams, it seems, has Canal+ ditching the more expensive football and putting all of its eggs in the rugby basket. That would be commercial suicide for UK broadcasters in the English market. Sky and BT rely too heavily on Premier League and Champions League to attract subscribers. Without one or the other, they would collapse. There would just not be enough of a market for a channel with no football but that had club rugby. It may be more viable if the channel had every single club game, international game and the lions, I would pay for that, but still it would not bring in the millions of subscribers that football does.

Hell, the BBC could have all of the rugby rights for a third of the cost of Match of the Day but that would never happen.

The lack of ability to attract a strong TV deal is always going to be a financial hurdle and the idea of a strong championship is one I think we all support but where is the money going to come from to pay for it because it does not have the revenue to grow and you cannot give the TV rights away.

[Robespierre]

There are so many good things in that article but there is one hurdle that I just cannot see rugby in England clearing.

The French teams, it seems, has Canal+ ditching the more expensive football and putting all of its eggs in the rugby basket. That would be commercial suicide for UK broadcasters in the English market. Sky and BT rely too heavily on Premier League and Champions League to attract subscribers. Without one or the other, they would collapse. There would just not be enough of a market for a channel with no football but that had club rugby. It may be more viable if the channel had every single club game, international game and the lions, I would pay for that, but still it would not bring in the millions of subscribers that football does.

Hell, the BBC could have all of the rugby rights for a third of the cost of Match of the Day but that would never happen.

The lack of ability to attract a strong TV deal is always going to be a financial hurdle and the idea of a strong championship is one I think we all support but where is the money going to come from to pay for it because it does not have the revenue to grow and you cannot give the TV rights away.

Not sure about that, maybe you're right. I don't follow football here in France but I believe that it's well covered by Canal+ and Prime Video.
Every ProD2 match is televised, I think, but I can't honestly see much demand at the moment to watch Ampthill v Cambridge, for example. Therein lies the problem. The Premiership attracts paying viewers but not many would pay to watch the second tier.
The RFU should really have serious down to earth discussions with Sky, BT, Prime etc to explore the possibilities of broadcasting more rugby. But will they?

[GB72]

There are so many good things in that article but there is one hurdle that I just cannot see rugby in England clearing.

The French teams, it seems, has Canal+ ditching the more expensive football and putting all of its eggs in the rugby basket. That would be commercial suicide for UK broadcasters in the English market. Sky and BT rely too heavily on Premier League and Champions League to attract subscribers. Without one or the other, they would collapse. There would just not be enough of a market for a channel with no football but that had club rugby. It may be more viable if the channel had every single club game, international game and the lions, I would pay for that, but still it would not bring in the millions of subscribers that football does.

Hell, the BBC could have all of the rugby rights for a third of the cost of Match of the Day but that would never happen.

The lack of ability to attract a strong TV deal is always going to be a financial hurdle and the idea of a strong championship is one I think we all support but where is the money going to come from to pay for it because it does not have the revenue to grow and you cannot give the TV rights away.

Not sure about that, maybe you're right. I don't follow football here in France but I believe that it's well covered by Canal+ and Prime Video.
Every ProD2 match is televised, I think, but I can't honestly see much demand at the moment to watch Ampthill v Cambridge, for example. Therein lies the problem. The Premiership attracts paying viewers but not many would pay to watch the second tier.
The RFU should really have serious down to earth discussions with Sky, BT, Prime etc to explore the possibilities of broadcasting more rugby. But will they?

I could be wrong, I read this quote in the article posted earlier:

“Canal+ has been the rugby channel for the past 30 years and, whenever the rights are put out to tender, they come up with the goods,” Gillham says. “Canal+ is a pay-TV channel but the current deal is good value for money, with matches from Thursday to Sunday. Canal+ pulled away from football, which was a ridiculous amount of money. It’s a really good partnership. And the TV deal is two-and-a-half times that of the Premiership.”

This has been my point for a long while, rugby could be a valuable product but it has to be sold as a whole to take the more limited audience with it. You sit out the negotiating table with the 6 nations, the autumn internationals, all premiership and championship matches, the full lot and you can start writing some big cheques to be split. You get the other nations involved and the other leagues and european matches and sell the full package, you can then start writing even bigger cheques. Sad as it sounds, to increase the premiership TV deal, it needs to be sold with the England rights. Rugby does not have a big enough market to be sold across a number of platforms but it does have a big and, from a marketing point of view, attractive enough market if it is sold exclusively so as that market is all in one place.

[Robespierre]

There are so many good things in that article but there is one hurdle that I just cannot see rugby in England clearing.

The French teams, it seems, has Canal+ ditching the more expensive football and putting all of its eggs in the rugby basket. That would be commercial suicide for UK broadcasters in the English market. Sky and BT rely too heavily on Premier League and Champions League to attract subscribers. Without one or the other, they would collapse. There would just not be enough of a market for a channel with no football but that had club rugby. It may be more viable if the channel had every single club game, international game and the lions, I would pay for that, but still it would not bring in the millions of subscribers that football does.

Hell, the BBC could have all of the rugby rights for a third of the cost of Match of the Day but that would never happen.

The lack of ability to attract a strong TV deal is always going to be a financial hurdle and the idea of a strong championship is one I think we all support but where is the money going to come from to pay for it because it does not have the revenue to grow and you cannot give the TV rights away.

Not sure about that, maybe you're right. I don't follow football here in France but I believe that it's well covered by Canal+ and Prime Video.
Every ProD2 match is televised, I think, but I can't honestly see much demand at the moment to watch Ampthill v Cambridge, for example. Therein lies the problem. The Premiership attracts paying viewers but not many would pay to watch the second tier.
The RFU should really have serious down to earth discussions with Sky, BT, Prime etc to explore the possibilities of broadcasting more rugby. But will they?

I could be wrong, I read this quote in the article posted earlier:

“Canal+ has been the rugby channel for the past 30 years and, whenever the rights are put out to tender, they come up with the goods,” Gillham says. “Canal+ is a pay-TV channel but the current deal is good value for money, with matches from Thursday to Sunday. Canal+ pulled away from football, which was a ridiculous amount of money. It’s a really good partnership. And the TV deal is two-and-a-half times that of the Premiership.”

This has been my point for a long while, rugby could be a valuable product but it has to be sold as a whole to take the more limited audience with it. You sit out the negotiating table with the 6 nations, the autumn internationals, all premiership and championship matches, the full lot and you can start writing some big cheques to be split. You get the other nations involved and the other leagues and european matches and sell the full package, you can then start writing even bigger cheques. Sad as it sounds, to increase the premiership TV deal, it needs to be sold with the England rights. Rugby does not have a big enough market to be sold across a number of platforms but it does have a big and, from a marketing point of view, attractive enough market if it is sold exclusively so as that market is all in one place.

Thanks, GB! Valid points in your post.

[Robespierre]

Round 6 of ProD2 is being played this evening and tomorrow evening:

This evening:
Colomiers v Provence - Jimmy Gopperth wears 10 for Provence and Teimana Harrison 8
Mont de Marsan v Aurillac

Tomorrow evening:
Brive v Dax
Vannes v Valence Romans
Rouen v Biarritz
Angoulême v Montauban
Nevers v Béziers
Grenoble v Agen

There are some names you'll all know who play for ProD2 clubs:

Vannes - Sione Kalamafoni
Provence - Jimmy Gopperth, Teimana Harrison, Johny McPhilips
Valence Romans - George Worth
Agen - Richard Barrington, Joe Maksymiw
Montauban - Semesa Rokoduguni
Dax - Neaphi Leatigaga
Grenoble - Terence Hepetema
Brive - Ross Moriarty, Sam Johnson, Stuart Olding
Béziers - Harry Glynn
Rouen - Valentino Mapapalangi
Biarritz - Charlie Matthews, Rhys Webb, Jonathan Joseph, Zach Kibirige

The table after 5 rounds, and look who's propping up the table but star-studded Biarritz:

1 Vannes 19
2 Provence 18
3 Valence Romans 14
4 Agen 14
5 Montauban 13
6 Nevers
7 Dax
8 Mont de Marsan 10
9 Grenoble 10
10 Aurillac 10
11 Brive 10
12 Béziers 10
13 Angoulême 9
14 Colomiers 9
15 Rouen 8
16 Biarritz 8

[Rugbygramps]

Slightly off topic Robes what is the talk in the French press about Dupont. Is it likely he will make the quarterfinals in his phantom mask

[Robespierre]

Slightly off topic Robes what is the talk in the French press about Dupont. Is it likely he will make the quarterfinals in his phantom mask

Clearly, the French public would sell their grannies to get Dupont back onto the pitch, but despite the talk about a protective mask, I think it's a long shot, honestly.
Ex referee, Romain Poite writes in today's Rugbyrama, "Que le masque ne mette pas en péril l’adversaire".
Hmm. Dupont does that without wearing a mask!
Apparently, all possibilities of wearing a mask acceptable to World Rugby are being explored so we'll have to wait and see.

[Robespierre]

Round four of the Top14 will be played on Sunday and here are the fixtures:

Bayonne v Stade Francais
Lyon v Clermont Auvergne
Montpellier v Racing
Perpignan v Pau
Toulon v Oyonnax
La Rochelle v Castres
Toulouse v Bordeaux/Bègles

[Robespierre]

Results:

Bayonne 16 Stade Francais3
Lyon 41 Clermont Auvergne 22
Montpellier 16 Racing 19
Perpignan 24 Pau 39
Toulon 41 Oyonnax 7
La Rochelle 24 Castres 27
Toulouse 29 Bordeaux/Bègles 22.

[Robespierre]

Top14 round 5 results:

Oyonnax 19 La Rochelle 17
Perpignan 26 Toulon 22
Bordeaux/Bègles 26 Montpellier 13 (Richard Cockerill's seems to have an uphill task as Montpellier's forwards' coach)
Clermont 46 Bayonne 14
Stade Français 39 Castres 16 (great start to the season for SF with ex Tiger Zack Henry at outside half)
Racing 22 Lyon 20 (Stuart Lancaster, Racing's new head coach must be delighted with his new club's start)
Pau 13 Toulouse 9

1 Pau 18
2 Racing 18
3 Stade Français 18
4 Clermont 14
5 Castres 14
6 Toulouse 14
7 Bordeaux/Bègles 13
8 Lyon 11
9 Toulon 11
10 Bayonne 9
11 Oyonnax 8
12 La Rochelle 7
13 Montpellier 5
14 Perpignan 4

Round 6 is next weekend:

Toulouse v Perpignan
Castres v Oyonnax
Lyon v SF
Montpellier v Clermont
Pau v B/B
La Rochelle v Bayonne
Toulon v Racing

[Robespierre]

The senior citizens among us will remember the formidable Alain Estève who played 2nd row for Béziers and France in the 1970s, who died at the weekend. I remember him as a player who struck fear into the opposition and spectators too! https://newsinfrance.com/former-legenda ... -has-died/

[Robespierre]

The senior citizens among us will remember the formidable Alain Estève who played 2nd row for Béziers and France in the 1970s, who died at the weekend. I remember him as a player who struck fear into the opposition and spectators too! https://newsinfrance.com/former-legenda ... -has-died/

They don't make 'em like that any more!

Here's the article on Estève by Charles Richardson in today's Telegraph:

‘It takes a lot to scare me, but I thought ‘:censored: hell’’: Farewell to rugby’s most feared player
Former France forward Alain Estève, nicknamed the Beast of Béziers, has died after a long battle with cancer

By
Charles Richardson,
RUGBY REPORTER
8 November 2023 • 8:59am

Alain Estève dead: former France forward dies aged 77

Whenever critics gather to discuss candidates for the most fearsome or intimidating players to have ever played the sport, the name of Alain Estève never strays far from the top of the list.

The mythical Estève, who died on Tuesday aged 77 after a long battle with cancer, made a name as one of rugby’s foremost tyrants. Throughout the 1970s, the forward won eight French league titles at the height of Béziers’s golden era, alongside 20 caps for France and a Five Nations title in 1973.

But, as Estève said in a rare 2021 interview with French rugby newspaper Midi Olympique: “I don’t give a s--- about any of that.” Richard Astre, Estève’s former scrum-half, maintained that the lock was the best forward in the world during the 1970s, and that he should have earnt far more than his modest 20 caps for France. Estève was too boisterous and recalcitrant, however, and after a 4am bender the night before France played at Twickenham in the 1975 Five Nations – a match Les Bleus would still go on to win – Estève’s international career was ended, with the lock playing no part in the 1977 Grand Slam. “I always preferred to be the butcher, rather than the veal,” he added menacingly, before extolling his “excitement” at being dubbed an assassin later in his career.

The Beast of Béziers they called him – or, simply, Le Grand – on account of his freakish stature. In 1971, the year of his debut for Les Bleus, Estève became the first Frenchman to play rugby at more than two metres tall – but his aura could not be quantified in metric measurements.

The name of Estève struck shuddering fear into the heart of anyone who faced him, as Bobby Windsor, the former Wales and Lions hooker – part of Pontypool’s legendary ‘Viet Gwent’ and no shrinking violet himself – recalls.

“When we packed down, I’d hear him say, ‘Bob-bee, Bob-bee’ and then this big fist would come through and smack you in the chops,” said Windsor. “To get my own back, I booted him in the [face] as hard as I could. He got up and gave me a wink. It takes a lot to scare me but I thought: ‘:censored: hell!’”


Since Estève’s retirement from rugby in 1982, his life was shrouded in mystery and delinquency. That 2021 interview was the first time that the legendary lock had been seen in public for decades, in part owing to a prison sentence for ‘pimping’ in Béziers, the south-west town in which he was also a restaurateur and nightclub owner. “[Prison was] very good, just like at home,” Estève told Midi Olympique. “There, as long as you have money, you are at peace.”

Estève was set on the path to wrongdoing by a troubled childhood. Having been born into a poor family, seeing his parents once a year and sleeping in ditches, he spent 10 years in a reformatory halfway between Toulouse and Perpignan, spending his days being attacked by the very same priests who were supposed to be his carers. At one stage, a teenage Estève attempted to escape from the facility and was locked up in a dungeon for a month. Rugby saved him, he believed – and his parents, too.

Within France, Estève gained most notoriety as the perpetrator of the infamous André Herrero incident, which occurred in the 1971 final between Béziers and Toulon. Despite playing the whole match, Toulon captain Herrero claims to have had four of his ribs broken by an act of skulduggery that was not caught clearly on camera. In Toulon, the knives and pitchforks came out for the Béziers lock – legend has it that fans burned effigies of Estève – but he maintained his innocence until the day he died, accusing Herrero of fabricating the injury and of being a communist.

“If there is no bullying, there is no rugby match,” he later said. “I swear I’ve never kicked a guy to the ground. Never. But walking on ankles and joints is part of rugby.

“When we played Narbonne [Béziers’ fierce local rivals] on the return train, we practised headbutts against the walls of the carriages. It was another era.”

“Le Grand est mort,” read the statement from Estève’s former club, Béziers, announcing his death on Wednesday. For better or worse, they simply do not make them like the Beast anymore.

[Smudge]

I see that a certain Parisian club are sniffing around our world cup winners, especially Jasper.
I would be more than a bit upset if he goes to France..

[Old Hob]

The senior citizens among us will remember the formidable Alain Estève who played 2nd row for Béziers and France in the 1970s, who died at the weekend. I remember him as a player who struck fear into the opposition and spectators too! https://newsinfrance.com/former-legenda ... -has-died/

Good grief! If Bobby Windsor was scared of him....