That's a link to a clarification of the definition of "near" when deciding when a player can dive on the ball after it leaves the ruck. No reference to the question of when it is in or out.
Like I said, I think there's been a misunderstanding because we're clearly talking about completely different things...
My understanding with rucks is that the ball is out when it goes beyond the hind most foot of the last player properly bound to the ruck. See Marler and Estebeth from last season
That's a link to a clarification of the definition of "near" when deciding when a player can dive on the ball after it leaves the ruck. No reference to the question of when it is in or out.
Like I said, I think there's been a misunderstanding because we're clearly talking about completely different things...
Would genuinely like to correct the misunderstanding.
My understanding is that when the ball is presented it is still in provided it isn't a metre away from the ruck and provided the scrum half hasn't picked it up. If it is more than a metre away then as per the clarification in the link a player can fall on the ball and claim it. Or if the scrum half picks it up you can charge or tackle.
So by my understanding it's clear if it's out or not. The ball being presented does not mean it's out.
I'm not an aficionado of the laws, nor an official in anyway, so happy to be corrected.
It says in that clarification "If the ball has left the ruck, then the ruck is over, and the ball is out." And I think I have explained left the ruck above?
Tying it back to caterpillar rucks - my thinking is that people can join the ruck in order to secure possession and ensure the ball is able to be presented but once presented (still in) can not join. They can still post a guard (onside of course) to protect the kicker but it will encourage the scrum half to use it quicker naturally whether passing or kicking.
That's a link to a clarification of the definition of "near" when deciding when a player can dive on the ball after it leaves the ruck. No reference to the question of when it is in or out.
Like I said, I think there's been a misunderstanding because we're clearly talking about completely different things...
Would genuinely like to correct the misunderstanding.
My understanding is that when the ball is presented it is still in provided it isn't a metre away from the ruck and provided the scrum half hasn't picked it up. If it is more than a metre away then as per the clarification in the link a player can fall on the ball and claim it. Or if the scrum half picks it up you can charge or tackle.
So by my understanding it's clear if it's out or not. The ball being presented does not mean it's out.
I'm not an aficionado of the laws, nor an official in anyway, so happy to be corrected.
It says in that clarification "If the ball has left the ruck, then the ruck is over, and the ball is out." And I think I have explained left the ruck above?
Tying it back to caterpillar rucks - my thinking is that people can join the ruck in order to secure possession and ensure the ball is able to be presented but once presented (still in) can not join. They can still post a guard (onside of course) to protect the kicker but it will encourage the scrum half to use it quicker naturally whether passing or kicking.
I think there's a difference between "out and can go and pick it up" and "out and can dive on it".
It can be out but still within a metre of the ruck, so you can go pick it up or kick it, the offside line is gone, but you can't dive on it.
I think the fact that we're even having to discuss it, as two people who clearly watch a lot of rugby, means it's not always 100% obvious.
Perhaps they should change the ruck binding requirement to make sure that players joining a stationary ruck after it has formed should be required to bind onto 2 players.
A 2 wide caterpillar would commit too man players to be worthwhile.
My biggest gripe with rucks is often the ball is not on the ground when the referee calls ruck. Quite often the tackled player is holding it up for the scrum half to take from him. Also no player should be allowed to handle the ball until it is behind the back foot otherwise they commit the offence of hands in the ruck.
GETHIN EXILE wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:18 pm
My biggest gripe with rucks is often the ball is not on the ground when the referee calls ruck. Quite often the tackled player is holding it up for the scrum half to take from him. Also no player should be allowed to handle the ball until it is behind the back foot otherwise they commit the offence of hands in the ruck.
Don’t think they call ruck, more tackle complete when the knee goes to floor, tbf they can then call that’s a ruck to stop the jackal.
From I’ve seen he scrum halfs are very careful only to use their feet until they can pick the ball up cleanly. It is here for me that refs sometimes call use it too early.
