Rugby World Cup warm up games

[kpj tiger]

Alternative, Hill, improved the line out when he came on.

Seemed to me we started losing lineouts once Hill came on

[Scott1]

Alternative, Hill, improved the line out when he came on.

Seemed to me we started losing lineouts once Hill came on

Strange to say Pearson stepped up too,very poor for me when comparing with his domestic performances this season and he was easily outplayed by his opposite number

[KiwiTig]

Tactically that was a one dimensional game plan. Great for club rugby but not for Test rugby. There needs to be a plan B or C Especially when plan A is too predictable. I don’t have the answers just more questions I’m afraid

[ay2oh]

Very poor display. Beaten by an average Wales side. Nothing in attack, multiple knock ons and set piece fell apart in second half. Won’t get out of group on that performance.

[markharbtiger]

Some journos seem restrained in their assessments, but Woodward is spot on https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... d-Cup.html

[markharbtiger]

Let’s go through the players that were picked for this game and discuss the alternatives in the squad and those out of the picked squad.
15, Steward, great under the high ball, strong in the tackle but as an attacking full back doesn’t set the world on fire.
Alternative, Watson but would want him on the wing.
14, Malins, very good player cemented his place in the side.
13, Marchant, ok game, some good, some bad, worth a place in the squad.
Alternative, Lawrence, definite starter and going to be a star in the World Cup.
12, Porter, very good club player but found out today and I think he will struggle to make the squad.
Alternative, Manu, cast iron pick.
11, Cokanasiga, not a great game today but worth a squad place as on his day he can make space for others to exploit.
Alternative, Watson, no other choice, a class act.
10, Smith, another class act and better than Ford if the game needs to be broken up with a running game.
Alternative, Owen Farrell, world class player who would be first choice in any international side.
9, Danny Care, can’t pick a favourite for the scrum half spot but would take Care with the first choice between him and JVP, sadly Ben is not an international scrum half anymore.
1, Genge, first choice, not sure who could be a decent replacement.
2, Blamire and Dan, found out today, don’t think they are food enough.
Alternative, obviously George and for me I would take Dunn from Bath, very competitive and very good at the basics of hooking and line out throwing, scores a lot of tries from the rolling maul.
3, Stuart, very solid in the scrum and good in the loose, carries and tackles well, a solid performance today.
Alternative, Sinckler, a very good prop with good hands, must be first choice, sadly Dan Cole is well past his best and shouldn’t be in the frame for a place in the squad.
4, Ribbans, definite pick.
Alternative, Hill, improved the line out when he came on.
5, Martin, we all know how good a player he is but too many knock ons and missed tackles today, think he will struggle to make the squad, I hope not.
Alternative, Maro Itoje, world class, one of the best second rows in the world.
6, Ludlam, good player, worth a place in the squad.
Alternative, Willis or Courtney Lawes, both class players.
7, Pearson, stepped up today and didn’t look out of place.
Alternative, not in the squad but I would take Underhill, great at the breakdown and an awesome tackler.
8 Dombrandt, a certainty for the squad and a very good player.
Alternative, Billie Vinipola, would give us go forward and still a class act.

You were clearly watching a different game to me with all that positivity! The opposition weren't that good, and England should have won that game.

[Scott1]

Hasn’t got any better upon sleeping on it! I’ve seen better performances on a Sunday morning when you havnt got enough juniors turn up and the opposition let you have a few of theirs,it really was that bad. Only SCW has had the bottle to say how it really is,it’s very worrying. “But it’s only the second team” etc you say,well it was the first team in the 6N and they wasn’t much better! Scary times. 3 losses on the bounce now and 2 wins in 6

[Sampy]

My first post on the forum but felt Martin was hard done by in this post so had to reply. Martin was top carrier in the game with 18 carries and only one turnover all game. He was Englands top tackler with 16 tackles and only 1 missed.
Also I think Ben Young's will start any big game for England as he is the best controller of a game at scrum half in the country and is exactly what Borthwick and the last 4 England coaches look for in a scrum half.
But I agrees with alot of your other points

[mol2]

What did they expect with the backs they selected?
Care has played a large number of games and demonstrated 2 things: he is good for a harem scared cameo at the end of a game and can’t control a game from the beginning. Radwan’s injury left him with too little time to play himself into contention.
Quins backs essentially function because of a South African bullock in the centre and England were not risking their bullocks. Marchant, had he played for Newcastle or Worcester would never have been spoken of as an international centre and most of us would have been surprised if Porter made the cut.

Having recently read Josh Lewsey’s autobiography where he describes the Bristol team he played for as a party team, or words to that effect, the decline in Sinckler and Genge’s form over the last season suggests that might be applicable once again.

Did they give up or run out of steam? We know Aled turned Tigers into the probably fittest side in the league, perhaps the need to get the other players up to scratch may mean at this point in the cycle they were heavy legged and tired and compromising the World Cup conditioning for a warm up game 4 weeks out wasn’t going to be considered?

The problem is Borthwick is inexperienced and parachuting him in at the last minute was an ask too far?
A seasoned coach like Gatland, with years of experience including the Lions might have the fortitude to make the changes needed and impose his coaching style and convey that to the coaching staff in such a short time, would find it a huge challenge. Borthwick and most of his team are inexperienced as coaches. Replicating last year’s miracle at Tigers would be great but this World Cup is just too soon. I’m looking forward to the 6N as the dilemma over which of the core to retain will be less pressing. New team, playing his way rather than trying to polish Jones’ team.

Borthwick is a team builder, Jones a team polisher. The best we can hope for is for Borthwick to roll it in glitter as there is no polishing this one. I would find a way of adding Vesty to his staff.

[SthrnTiger]

The performance was really poor but I don’t think we need to throw the towel in just yet.

In 2019 I saw the same warm up game and with many more 1st teamers England put in a similarly abject performance.

[jgriffin]

Watched the first half (then had stuff to do) but said to Mrs G "that's the game gone" as the many scoring chances botched had blown it. However I am slightly less worried than the "well, that's it all over now, sack SB" crew on here.
The players themselves will be just coming off the heaviest conditioning phase of training, so they will be underpowered, whereas in the competition phase (there's a sharpener to come) they'll be vastly more energetic. More worrying was the poor handling, and really worrying was the failure to kill off the game with the try scoring chances - I counted 5 clear 'should score' blown. Now this was initially a problem with Tigers under Borthwick.
A forward oriented game, territorial and energy sapping, will win most games - percentages count heavily - but it takes a toll if chances aren't converted.
At root, this is a team to reach the KO stages, and perhaps win one round. If the missing players stay on the pitch, who knows? I can't see past the current top 4 ranked teams, and think England will be the last home nation to go out bar Ireland.

[sam16111986]

Let’s go through the players that were picked for this game and discuss the alternatives in the squad and those out of the picked squad.
15, Steward, great under the high ball, strong in the tackle but as an attacking full back doesn’t set the world on fire.
Alternative, Watson but would want him on the wing.
14, Malins, very good player cemented his place in the side.
13, Marchant, ok game, some good, some bad, worth a place in the squad.
Alternative, Lawrence, definite starter and going to be a star in the World Cup.
12, Porter, very good club player but found out today and I think he will struggle to make the squad.
Alternative, Manu, cast iron pick.
11, Cokanasiga, not a great game today but worth a squad place as on his day he can make space for others to exploit.
Alternative, Watson, no other choice, a class act.
10, Smith, another class act and better than Ford if the game needs to be broken up with a running game.
Alternative, Owen Farrell, world class player who would be first choice in any international side.
9, Danny Care, can’t pick a favourite for the scrum half spot but would take Care with the first choice between him and JVP, sadly Ben is not an international scrum half anymore.
1, Genge, first choice, not sure who could be a decent replacement.
2, Blamire and Dan, found out today, don’t think they are food enough.
Alternative, obviously George and for me I would take Dunn from Bath, very competitive and very good at the basics of hooking and line out throwing, scores a lot of tries from the rolling maul.
3, Stuart, very solid in the scrum and good in the loose, carries and tackles well, a solid performance today.
Alternative, Sinckler, a very good prop with good hands, must be first choice, sadly Dan Cole is well past his best and shouldn’t be in the frame for a place in the squad.
4, Ribbans, definite pick.
Alternative, Hill, improved the line out when he came on.
5, Martin, we all know how good a player he is but too many knock ons and missed tackles today, think he will struggle to make the squad, I hope not.
Alternative, Maro Itoje, world class, one of the best second rows in the world.
6, Ludlam, good player, worth a place in the squad.
Alternative, Willis or Courtney Lawes, both class players.
7, Pearson, stepped up today and didn’t look out of place.
Alternative, not in the squad but I would take Underhill, great at the breakdown and an awesome tackler.
8 Dombrandt, a certainty for the squad and a very good player.
Alternative, Billie Vinipola, would give us go forward and still a class act.

Martin was England's top tackler and only missed one tackle. Made 16 missed 1. Joint top carrier, doing a lot of the straight smash it up to try and generate clean ball type of stuff. Just the one occasion he turned the ball over, that first knock on. Not the impact he'd have wanted as I'm sure he'd have wanted a big hit or big carry to really make a statement but he did a lot of the unflashy hard graft. He was also used as the go to lineout option which is an unusual role for him and mostly took the throws to him.

Incidentally no English player turned the ball over as much as Malins (4).

Dombrant made 9 tackles but missed 3. Carried 5 times for 14m, nearly all those 14m came from his one clean break where he over ran the pass and the ref missed that Genge passed it forward to Dombrant. He should be back at Quins next week.

I thought England really lost something when Ribbans went off for his HIA and Hill came on. I think the lineout got worse in the second half, Dan in particular really struggled. Sinckler was really poor when he came on and Stuart probably took his starting berth unless Sinckler comes back firing in the next few games.

[baz1664]

I think England are miles behind the rest currently, individually we have no world class players, SB success at the tigers came when he fine chiselled the set piece and brought back the physicality at the breakdown. With tigers he had the key axis of Montoya, Wiese and Ford. The first two both world class and at the top of their game, as for Ford he was protected by his pack and his game management and kicking put Tigers in attacking and point scoring positions. Montoya rolling over in the maul was a constant theme.

As for England we have nobody in these positions who influence games, no number 8 who intimidates anyone and makes big metres, the last probably being Billy V. No outstanding option at hooker and an array of different fly halves. Smith doesn’t fit the SB structured game plan, Farrell not world class but makes the 10 spot his own because of limited options, I hope Fordy gets the chance but all that will mean is Farrell slots into centre and we don’t need his limitations there.

I just think the England talent pool is limited and if we make it out of the group then we have done well.

SB has arrived in the big job at the worse time, premiership rugby falling to bits and a pool of players who don’t get anywhere near the best in Ireland, SA and NZ.

[baz1664]

Let’s go through the players that were picked for this game and discuss the alternatives in the squad and those out of the picked squad.
15, Steward, great under the high ball, strong in the tackle but as an attacking full back doesn’t set the world on fire.
Alternative, Watson but would want him on the wing.
14, Malins, very good player cemented his place in the side.
13, Marchant, ok game, some good, some bad, worth a place in the squad.
Alternative, Lawrence, definite starter and going to be a star in the World Cup.
12, Porter, very good club player but found out today and I think he will struggle to make the squad.
Alternative, Manu, cast iron pick.
11, Cokanasiga, not a great game today but worth a squad place as on his day he can make space for others to exploit.
Alternative, Watson, no other choice, a class act.
10, Smith, another class act and better than Ford if the game needs to be broken up with a running game.
Alternative, Owen Farrell, world class player who would be first choice in any international side.
9, Danny Care, can’t pick a favourite for the scrum half spot but would take Care with the first choice between him and JVP, sadly Ben is not an international scrum half anymore.
1, Genge, first choice, not sure who could be a decent replacement.
2, Blamire and Dan, found out today, don’t think they are food enough.
Alternative, obviously George and for me I would take Dunn from Bath, very competitive and very good at the basics of hooking and line out throwing, scores a lot of tries from the rolling maul.
3, Stuart, very solid in the scrum and good in the loose, carries and tackles well, a solid performance today.
Alternative, Sinckler, a very good prop with good hands, must be first choice, sadly Dan Cole is well past his best and shouldn’t be in the frame for a place in the squad.
4, Ribbans, definite pick.
Alternative, Hill, improved the line out when he came on.
5, Martin, we all know how good a player he is but too many knock ons and missed tackles today, think he will struggle to make the squad, I hope not.
Alternative, Maro Itoje, world class, one of the best second rows in the world.
6, Ludlam, good player, worth a place in the squad.
Alternative, Willis or Courtney Lawes, both class players.
7, Pearson, stepped up today and didn’t look out of place.
Alternative, not in the squad but I would take Underhill, great at the breakdown and an awesome tackler.
8 Dombrandt, a certainty for the squad and a very good player.
Alternative, Billie Vinipola, would give us go forward and still a class act.

Farrell world class and walks into any international team, incorrect on both points!!

[RunTigerRun]

For what it’s worth (probably not a lot!) my England team would be in ‘rank order too’: (only of people in the squad currently - I’d have the likes of Mercer, Spencer, Mitchell if I could!)

1 - Genge, Marler, Rodd
2 - George, Walker, Blamire
3 - Stuart, Cole, Sinckler
4 - Itoje, Martin
5 - Chessum, Ribbans
6 - Lawes, Ludlam
7 - Willis, Curry
8 - Vunipola, Willis
9 - JvP, Youngs, Care
10 - Farrell, Ford, Smith
11 - Watson, Arundell
12 - Tuilagi,
13 - Lawrence, Daly
14 - Malins, Murley
15 - Steward