What is a forward pass?

[Tykger]

Perhaps an extreme example would help:

You are in a goods van of a train travelling at 60mph. Everything in the van is therefore also going at 60 mph. You pass the ball from the front left corner of the van to a colleague in the rear right. That is obviously a legal pass but the ball, relative to the ground, was travelling forward at 60mph minus the speed of your pass. Now, a player's running speed will obviously be lower but the principle is the same.

Ahh schooldays and Einstein's relativity

What happens to this scenario if, as some would want the game is played at the speed of light?

Then the mass of the player would be infinite, so it would by definition become impossible to stop Jasper.

Let's use Duck Theory.... If it smells like a forward pass, moves like a forward pass, looks like a forward pass and sounds like one, then it is one !

[Offside]

I agree it would be easier if the pass needed to be flat or backwards relative to the pitch. That is easier to confirm from lines on the pitch or superimposed on a video. The IRB interpretation/change to the actual written law makes it open to interpretation and video angle of the hands but was pushed by Australian TV commentators who wanted a free flowing game and became the dogma. I would warn the players of a change to flat or backwards relative to the pitch in 1 year and get back to the written laws.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Whichever definition of forward pass they use the smart ball they're trialling should be able to instantly call forward or backwards passes, so long as it knows team in possession.

Key is then conveying it to the ref e.g. vibrating watch as per goal-line technology in football.

All of a sudden game has been sped up, one less thing for officials to watch too closely for so hopefully the pick up other stuff.

Also none of this two phase come back stuff, it gets called immediately so no feeling aggrieved over 2 or 3 phases

[BigChris]

The lines on the pitch are the problem. Too many, who havent actually played, see a forward pass incorrectly for all the reasons given in posts above.
Referees will look at the players hands at the point of pass release. If the players hands are showing a backwards pass in relation to their body and motion then the ball flight is largely immaterial and a legitimate pass will be called. We may not agree when the balls flight is shown, but thats a different issue.

[mol2]

I thought that all this had been decided. First of all, the entire Crumbie stand will tell you when it's forward, and generally they are right. However, the ball will travel forward from the hand of the passer at the same speed as that of the passer, however, this momentum will dissipate. Forward is therefore defined as relative to the players not the pitch, otherwise all passing would have to be done while stationary.

No, players don’t run that fast. You can still pass the ball backwards whilst running forwards.

I despise the momentum twaddle, the direction of the hands and so on.

This is rugby union not handball. The fixed reference point is the pitch not the moving player. Let’s get back to that. Sensors in balls at the top level and pitches mowed parallel to the dead ball line for other levels to aid the touch judges and the ref.

[Rugbygramps]

Sensors in the ball have been mentioned.
I think they were trialed in the 6 nations to measure the distant of kicks , hang time etc for the broadcasters.

I may be being thick but how is a sensor in the ball going to help when it doesn’t know which side has the ball, and which way is backwards.

[loretta]

I thought that all this had been decided. First of all, the entire Crumbie stand will tell you when it's forward, and generally they are right. However, the ball will travel forward from the hand of the passer at the same speed as that of the passer, however, this momentum will dissipate. Forward is therefore defined as relative to the players not the pitch, otherwise all passing would have to be done while stationary.

No, players don’t run that fast. You can still pass the ball backwards whilst running forwards.

I despise the momentum twaddle, the direction of the hands and so on.

This is rugby union not handball. The fixed reference point is the pitch not the moving player. Let’s get back to that. Sensors in balls at the top level and pitches mowed parallel to the dead ball line for other levels to aid the touch judges and the ref.

Agreed. I did some calculations a while back with some o level trigonometry and recorded pass and runner speeds to help with the vectors. It’s entirely possible to achieve a pass that doesn’t go forwards relative to the pitch while running. It’s not like the players don’t get paid enough to be good at doing so, is it? The momentum nonsense just confuses a simple issue. Also, if you go down that line, the top speed of a winger, being greater than that of most props, would allow backs to pass the ball “forwards” at a greater angle than the fat lads. Try unpacking that as a ref in real time!

[Big Dai]

A pass that moves in the opposite direction, relative to the try line, to the same team's scrum put in.

[Offside]

The lines on the pitch are the problem. Too many, who havent actually played, see a forward pass incorrectly for all the reasons given in posts above.
Referees will look at the players hands at the point of pass release. If the players hands are showing a backwards pass in relation to their body and motion then the ball flight is largely immaterial and a legitimate pass will be called. We may not agree when the balls flight is shown, but thats a different issue.

Chris, this would be fine if that was actually in the laws. The law still is relative to the teams own try line. If the law was changed to the hand direction then the current interpretation and the laws would be the same. Currently they are not.

[mol2]

Sensors in the ball have been mentioned.
I think they were trialed in the 6 nations to measure the distant of kicks , hang time etc for the broadcasters.

I may be being thick but how is a sensor in the ball going to help when it doesn’t know which side has the ball, and which way is backwards.

The ref would only need to check when in doubt. The trajectory of the ball most of the time is not in question.

[Nofrontteeth]

An enquiry stemming from references to the television TMO.

My understanding has been that a TMO's involvement in forward passes only comes in
a) on Sirs request; and
b) it relates to up to 2 moves prior to the scoring of a try.

As with all on field decisions it's Sir who judges forward, with or without involvement of the flag waggers.
Have I got that right?

[Rugbygramps]

An enquiry stemming from references to the television TMO.

My understanding has been that a TMO's involvement in forward passes only comes in
a) on Sirs request; and
b) it relates to up to 2 moves prior to the scoring of a try.

As with all on field decisions it's Sir who judges forward, with or without involvement of the flag waggers.
Have I got that right?

Flag wavers will indicate a forward pass if they feel they see one, but the ref can decide whether to accept tat advice. Right about TMO

[BigChris]

The lines on the pitch are the problem. Too many, who havent actually played, see a forward pass incorrectly for all the reasons given in posts above.
Referees will look at the players hands at the point of pass release. If the players hands are showing a backwards pass in relation to their body and motion then the ball flight is largely immaterial and a legitimate pass will be called. We may not agree when the balls flight is shown, but thats a different issue.

Chris, this would be fine if that was actually in the laws. The law still is relative to the teams own try line. If the law was changed to the hand direction then the current interpretation and the laws would be the same. Currently they are not.

I’ve looked at IRB Law 11 repeatedly (knock on and throw forward) and can’t find anything relating regarding being relative to the try line - the only reference is that the ‘player’ must not throw the ball forward. Not sure where you got your reference but I’d be pleased to see it.

[Offside]

Hi,

I owe you an apology, the the laws have been changed. There was a section on the nature of play that described a ball being passed towards the try line of the team passing. This has been removed and the definition of a “throw forward” in the definition section of the IRB 2023 laws now says “when a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward”.
So to be fair to the IRB the definition in the 2023 laws is now relative to the direction of the arms of the player passing. This is good clarification, even if it locks in that movement of the ball forward is allowed due to momentum of the body whilst the arms are not pointed forward.

[RichieRich89]

The problem with basing it purely on whether the ball ends up further up the pitch is that this would mean you couldn't legally pass the ball to someone behind you if you're both running fast enough.