My questions on the "stopping a try" element of action is --
"Was Ash's foot already out of play before Woodburn made any 'significant' contact with him?"
"Had Hogg legally already nulified Ash's attempt to down the ball?"
As a relevant aside if Ash had got the ball down, say under the posts followed by Woodburns flop on tackle ( cheap shot or not) I'm sure nothing would be said and Woodburn would have played on.
We see the 'slightly late' drop on tackles, if they are tackles all to often. If a tackler is carrying a previous yellow will we now see them get red or at least a penalty kick off?
I doubt it!
Nofrontteeth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 12:54 pm My questions on the "stopping a try" element of action is --
"Was Ash's foot already out of play before Woodburn made any 'significant' contact with him?"
"Had Hogg legally already nulified Ash's attempt to down the ball?"
As a relevant aside if Ash had got the ball down, say under the posts followed by Woodburns flop on tackle ( cheap shot or not) I'm sure nothing would be said and Woodburn would have played on.
We see the 'slightly late' drop on tackles, if they are tackles all to often. If a tackler is carrying a previous yellow will we now see them get red or at least a penalty kick off?
I doubt it!
Ashton was still in the field of play when Woodburn tackled him and changed his direction towards the touchline. The act of preventing the try being scored by the tackle resulted in the penalty try and a Yellow card had to be awarded as the player could be identified.
If it had been scored under the posts, doubt that there would have been a penalty.
Nofrontteeth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 12:51 pm
My questions on the "stopping a try" element of action is --
"Was Ash's foot already out of play before Woodburn made any 'significant' contact with him?"
"Had Hogg legally already nulified Ash's attempt to down the ball?"
As a relevant aside if Ash had got the ball down, say under the posts followed by Woodburns flop on tackle ( cheap shot or not) I'm sure nothing would be said and Woodburn would have played on.
We see the 'slightly late' drop on tackles, if they are tackles all to often. If a tackler is carrying a previous yellow will we now see them get red or at least a penalty kick off?
I doubt it!
Re Ashtons foot no it wasn’t, it was the slide from Woodburn that made the difference. Worth remembering that his boot toe only clipped the line.
As has been said unique set of circumstances, and the yellow wasn’t because the tackle was severe it was because it stopped a try and Woodburn could be identified. Anywhere else on the pitch just a penalty.
The card was for the penalty try, just like if a diving maul is dropped , which I think is an important distinction to make.
Nofrontteeth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 12:54 pm My questions on the "stopping a try" element of action is --
"Was Ash's foot already out of play before Woodburn made any 'significant' contact with him?"
"Had Hogg legally already nulified Ash's attempt to down the ball?"
As a relevant aside if Ash had got the ball down, say under the posts followed by Woodburns flop on tackle ( cheap shot or not) I'm sure nothing would be said and Woodburn would have played on.
We see the 'slightly late' drop on tackles, if they are tackles all to often. If a tackler is carrying a previous yellow will we now see them get red or at least a penalty kick off?
I doubt it!
Ashton was still in the field of play when Woodburn tackled him and changed his direction towards the touchline. The act of preventing the try being scored by the tackle resulted in the penalty try and a Yellow card had to be awarded as the player could be identified.
If it had been scored under the posts, doubt that there would have been a penalty.
That raises the definition of a tackle as opposed to a touch/push.
When Ash was 'brought down to ground' was he tackled and was Woodburn therefore "just pushing Ash to touch"?
If tackled by Hogg, before any foot in touch due to Woodburns push Ash certainly didn't release the ball in a tackle before it going over the tryline.
Technical breach by Leicester freekick Exeter?
Another scenario of Rugby Law and its interpretation for Kings Council to debate. Breaches their chronology and their precedence.
Nofrontteeth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 12:54 pm My questions on the "stopping a try" element of action is --
"Was Ash's foot already out of play before Woodburn made any 'significant' contact with him?"
"Had Hogg legally already nulified Ash's attempt to down the ball?"
As a relevant aside if Ash had got the ball down, say under the posts followed by Woodburns flop on tackle ( cheap shot or not) I'm sure nothing would be said and Woodburn would have played on.
We see the 'slightly late' drop on tackles, if they are tackles all to often. If a tackler is carrying a previous yellow will we now see them get red or at least a penalty kick off?
I doubt it!
Ashton was still in the field of play when Woodburn tackled him and changed his direction towards the touchline. The act of preventing the try being scored by the tackle resulted in the penalty try and a Yellow card had to be awarded as the player could be identified.
If it had been scored under the posts, doubt that there would have been a penalty.
That raises the definition of a tackle as opposed to a touch/push.
When Ash was 'brought down to ground' was he tackled and was Woodburn therefore "just pushing Ash to touch"?
If tackled by Hogg, before any foot in touch due to Woodburns push Ash certainly didn't release the ball in a tackle before it going over the tryline.
Technical breach by Leicester freekick Exeter?
Another scenario of Rugby Law and its interpretation for Kings Council to debate. Breaches their chronology and their precedence.
With the greatest respect you are looking at it too deeply. Player tackled in the act of trying to score, as trying to place the ball second defender slides in illegally which helps propel him into touch. Ashton did nothing wrong, nor did Hogg, Woodburn did.
It was looked at by 4 officials who are vastly more qualified than we are, and the decision was penalty try, yellow card. End of I’m afraid, and yes I would say the same if a Tigers player had transgressed
Nofrontteeth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 1:32 pm
Another scenario of Rugby Law and its interpretation for Kings Council to debate. Breaches their chronology and their precedence.
Except it probably won't be as it was only a yellow card, and was only a yellow card due to the interpretation that it stopped the act of scoring and hence led to a penalty try. Anywhere else on the pitch an it's penalty only. There'll presumably be no ban or disciplinary hearing?
Interesting incidents to compare to:
Hogg earlier in the match (pen?)
Aled Davies for Sarries in the last minute at Welford Road last season barging a player on the floor into touch (pen to Tigers)
Murimurivalu at Sarries last season flopping onto a player as they scored (yellow card)
As Baxter said yesterday, it was unfortunate circumstances for Woodburn. But he didn't help himself by the speculative deliberate knock-on in the first half.
Ashton was still in the field of play when Woodburn tackled him and changed his direction towards the touchline. The act of preventing the try being scored by the tackle resulted in the penalty try and a Yellow card had to be awarded as the player could be identified.
If it had been scored under the posts, doubt that there would have been a penalty.
That raises the definition of a tackle as opposed to a touch/push.
When Ash was 'brought down to ground' was he tackled and was Woodburn therefore "just pushing Ash to touch"?
If tackled by Hogg, before any foot in touch due to Woodburns push Ash certainly didn't release the ball in a tackle before it going over the tryline.
Technical breach by Leicester freekick Exeter?
Another scenario of Rugby Law and its interpretation for Kings Council to debate. Breaches their chronology and their precedence.
With the greatest respect you are looking at it too deeply. Player tackled in the act of trying to score, as trying to place the ball second defender slides in illegally which helps propel him into touch. Ashton did nothing wrong, nor did Hogg, Woodburn did.
It was looked at by 4 officials who are vastly more qualified than we are, and the decision was penalty try, yellow card. End of I’m afraid, and yes I would say the same if a Tigers player had transgressed
100% correct. The offence itself not a yellow card offence either until the award of penalty try makes it mandatory. 1, 2 or 3 metres further out and it's just a penalty.
That raises the definition of a tackle as opposed to a touch/push.
When Ash was 'brought down to ground' was he tackled and was Woodburn therefore "just pushing Ash to touch"?
If tackled by Hogg, before any foot in touch due to Woodburns push Ash certainly didn't release the ball in a tackle before it going over the tryline.
Technical breach by Leicester freekick Exeter?
Another scenario of Rugby Law and its interpretation for Kings Council to debate. Breaches their chronology and their precedence.
With the greatest respect you are looking at it too deeply. Player tackled in the act of trying to score, as trying to place the ball second defender slides in illegally which helps propel him into touch. Ashton did nothing wrong, nor did Hogg, Woodburn did.
It was looked at by 4 officials who are vastly more qualified than we are, and the decision was penalty try, yellow card. End of I’m afraid, and yes I would say the same if a Tigers player had transgressed
100% correct. The offence itself not a yellow card offence either until the award of penalty try makes it mandatory. 1, 2 or 3 metres further out and it's just a penalty.
I note and respect the various summings up made by you Kings Councillors (AKA The Crumbie)
I am purely playing my part in a balanced judgement.
As for going into it too deeply if this was any of us accused of an offence we'd want our expensive defence lawyer to consider every avenue of our innocence or mitigation.
I hope that the Redcard does not invoke going up before their Justicses the RFU although if it were their judgement could be interesting.
Ladies and Gentlemen I rest my case.
That battle for the top 8 champions cup places is going to be interesting especially with Gloucester seemingly falling off a cliff. Posh Richard won’t be happy.
wigworth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 2:34 pm
Does he get a one match ban?
I don’t think he does, but may be wrong.
Well they have Bristol next so I guess he would be available for the CC semi even if he does get a ban.
He will probably got to a hearing but the outcome will depend upon his accumulation of yellows. One match ban would be the maximum but would not be surprised if it went without any further penalty.
My questions on the "stopping a try" element of action is --
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