Rob Baxter: Exeter boss wants teams to be able to replace red-carded players during games

[FrontRowUnionMember]

Well, Baxter must have known they were getting a red today

[longlivethecrumbie]

Well, Baxter must have known they were getting a red today

I did think afterwards that he'd probably regret bringing it up this week!

[Rugbygramps]

Tbf the point he was making about red cards being replaced after 20 minutes would have been very appropriate today.

[mol2]

Perhaps the time has come to distinguish between technical offences and foul play in terms of sanctions.

Yellows for repeated off sides/deliberate knock ons etc. 10 minute sanctions with no further consequences if repeated. A player may incur more than one yellow but return after each one.

Orange for low level dangerous play like careless head contact, again a 10 minutes in the bin. 2nd orange and player may not return to field but may be replaced after 15.

Likewise for a straight red. Replace after 15 minutes.

[Offside]

The problem is that the technical offences, such as repeated deliberate knock on are also spoiling the spectacle too. Intercepts are high risk. Deliberately knocking the ball being passed out wide should end up with a sanction if the same player repeatedly does it. Both of yesterdays were blatant attempts to stop attacking rugby and the spectacle of a historic 100 tries for a player. Baxter is trying to have his cake and eat it too. Stop your players doing technical offences. The fact the players react like they do not know the laws when they are professionals is astounding. Get if the Xbox and golf course and look at the rule book and then play within it or accept the laws as they are.

[Rugbygramps]

Perhaps the time has come to distinguish between technical offences and foul play in terms of sanctions.

Yellows for repeated off sides/deliberate knock ons etc. 10 minute sanctions with no further consequences if repeated. A player may incur more than one yellow but return after each one.

Orange for low level dangerous play like careless head contact, again a 10 minutes in the bin. 2nd orange and player may not return to field but may be replaced after 15.

Likewise for a straight red. Replace after 15 minutes.

Why are we needing to complicate even further. I’m all for what is being proposed as it seems a logical progression.
Ben Kay said on commentary you can’t change the laws for every conceivable situation. Yes the 2nd yellow was a strange set of circumstances but the correct call by Dickson. It was Woodburn who had put himself in the situation by going for a risky interception which if he didn’t make was always going to be a yellow

[mol2]

The laws have effectively been changed, or at leat there implementation.

We now have far lower thresholds for cards of both colours so unless we want the match to be ended as a spectacle for the fans, the impact of reds has to be reduced.

[tigerburnie]

or players could just play to the ref rather than as brain dead numpties. Exeter players seem to be coached to flop all over rucks and have done so for years and seem to get away with when there's a heap of players. Yesterday exposed the ploy, now no-one is saying that was a red card offence, but coupled with the deliberate knock on, which in itself could have been a red card, the accumulated offences caused a player who was clearly not thinking very smart to be sent off, for that I applaud the officials, the ref was not wrong.

[GB72]

It was just a rare turn of events. In most cases, it was a penalty only, no problem at all and would have not been mentioned anywhere else on the pitch.

The problem then was that the offence knocked Ashton into touch so prevented a try from being scored. Penalty preventing a try is a yellow card. So, unlucky that this compounded the offence.

Then the player already had a yellow card and so that makes it a red.

And there you have it, what would have been an innocuous penalty in most cases became a red card by a pretty unique set of events. Harsh but not wrong.

[Tigerbeat]

Just a thought, if a player receives yellow card for offside. deliberate knock on - bin for 10 mins and then subsequently infringes again in a similar manner and gets another yellow card (meaning red in todays game), extend the sin bin time to 20 minutes. These are what I would term technical infringements.

If the player is carded for an act of foul play eg high /late tackles, playing main in the air - any two yellows would become red.

[Old Hob]

Just a thought, if a player receives yellow card for offside. deliberate knock on - bin for 10 mins and then subsequently infringes again in a similar manner and gets another yellow card (meaning red in todays game), extend the sin bin time to 20 minutes. These are what I would term technical infringements.

If the player is carded for an act of foul play eg high /late tackles, playing main in the air - any two yellows would become red.

|And what if it's one of each?

[Tigerbeat]

Just a thought, if a player receives yellow card for offside. deliberate knock on - bin for 10 mins and then subsequently infringes again in a similar manner and gets another yellow card (meaning red in todays game), extend the sin bin time to 20 minutes. These are what I would term technical infringements.

If the player is carded for an act of foul play eg high /late tackles, playing main in the air - any two yellows would become red.

|And what if it's one of each?

If either of the yellow cards is for foul play - that would take it to a red.

[mightymouse]

Whilst at the match I could not understand what the second yellow was for and it seemed harsh. Great for us and Ash who took full advantage of the extra space but harsh and not great for the neutral. I think we would have won easily anyway but not by that score.
Having watched on TV and listened to both the ITV commentary and the BT version and the highlight s program too I think my original assessment still stands .. harsh .. it fact even harsher than I thought before.
Is it strictly to the letter of the law? .. debateable
If that is against the law, should it be ? definitively not!
Woodburn slid in to try to prevent try. Why shouldn’t he?
This obsession with we must see loads of tries for the game to be exciting is nonsense. I equally love to see great defensive play and I think Hogg and Woodburn in this instance should have been rewarded for great defensive play! Instead to be given a ridiculous sanction is poor laws being over vigorously refereed. The lineout should have been played.
I think this precedent will now start all sorts of claims of who dived in when on every other try and yet another excuse for yet another TMO yawn fest! Not for me thanks!
No foul play, no danger to anyone..
in the future in wet weather players could be sliding in from six yards out totally unmolested and not a darn thing anyone can do to stop it.
I remember some years ago when there was no sliding in allowed,, no secondary placement allowed..you had to place the ball over tbe line first time. Now it’s all in favour of tries and if you try to defend you’re sent off .. total nonsense!

[Rugbygramps]

Whilst at the match I could not understand what the second yellow was for and it seemed harsh. Great for us and Ash who took full advantage of the extra space but harsh and not great for the neutral. I think we would have won easily anyway but not by that score.
Having watched on TV and listened to both the ITV commentary and the BT version and the highlight s program too I think my original assessment still stands .. harsh .. it fact even harsher than I thought before.
Is it strictly to the letter of the law? .. debateable
If that is against the law, should it be ? definitively not!
Woodburn slid in to try to prevent try. Why shouldn’t he?
This obsession with we must see loads of tries for the game to be exciting is nonsense. I equally love to see great defensive play and I think Hogg and Woodburn in this instance should have been rewarded for great defensive play! Instead to be given a ridiculous sanction is poor laws being over vigorously refereed. The lineout should have been played.
I think this precedent will now start all sorts of claims of who dived in when on every other try and yet another excuse for yet another TMO yawn fest! Not for me thanks!
No foul play, no danger to anyone..
in the future in wet weather players could be sliding in from six yards out totally unmolested and not a darn thing anyone can do to stop it.
I remember some years ago when there was no sliding in allowed,, no secondary placement allowed..you had to place the ball over tbe line first time. Now it’s all in favour of tries and if you try to defend you’re sent off .. total nonsense!

Looking at in detail, Woodburn slide into a player who had already been tackled. Is that against the laws, yes it is.
Did Woodburns momentum help push Ashton into touch, again yes it did. Would a try have been scored without Woodburn intervention, yes it probably would, therefore a penalty try. As a penalty try was awarded could the culprit be identified, yes Woodburn, so yellow card. So the card was awarded for stopping the try being scored not the severity of the challenge.

For those asking what else Woodburn could have done, the same question was asked when there were a number of red cards given for shoulders to the face when trying to prevent the jackal. The answer then was the same as this change your behaviour, if what you’re going to do might lead to a card or a penalty try, don’t do it.
Players need to learn and change their behaviour, just like they have done with tackle height.

[Nofrontteeth]

My questions on the "stopping a try" element of action is --

"Was Ash's foot already out of play before Woodburn made any 'significant' contact with him?"

"Had Hogg legally already nulified Ash's attempt to down the ball?"

As a relevant aside if Ash had got the ball down, say under the posts followed by Woodburns flop on tackle ( cheap shot or not) I'm sure nothing would be said and Woodburn would have played on.
We see the 'slightly late' drop on tackles, if they are tackles all to often. If a tackler is carrying a previous yellow will we now see them get red or at least a penalty kick off?
I doubt it!