Tigers v Leinster (A) - Champion Cup - Qtr Final - 07th April 2023 - KO 8:00pm

[Hot_Charlie]

Ireland and France aren't really a valid comparison. One has evolved its whole structure to produce a team which is head and shoulders above all others with the very distinct pecking order (Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht). France on the other hand has fewer financial restrictions, clubs with municipal facilities (which is a very long term thing and has "always been the way"), and the it's generally - bar Toulouse - very cyclical depending on the openess and willingness of the club owner's wallets (Stade, then Toulon, Racing, Lyon, now La Rochelle etc).

The circumstances and - unfortunately for most clubs - market are completely different here.

[Rugbygramps]

Ireland and France aren't really a valid comparison. One has evolved its whole structure to produce a team which is head and shoulders above all others with the very distinct pecking order (Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht). France on the other hand has fewer financial restrictions, clubs with municipal facilities (which is a very long term thing and has "always been the way"), and the it's generally - bar Toulouse - very cyclical depending on the openess and willingness of the club owner's wallets (Stade, then Toulon, Racing, Lyon, now La Rochelle etc).

The circumstances and - unfortunately for most clubs - market are completely different here.

Not having a go Charlie, far from it. But your post is indicative of the problem. Not valid comparisons, it’s different here, so rather than change mindsets, we leave things as they are and was posted earlier within 10 years change will be enforced or the game at the top will wither and die

[RichieRich89]

I haven't seen Lancaster's coaching mentioned as a factor in Leinster's fortunes - at least not in relation to this game.

If you look at the regularity with which Leinster have scored 50 points or more in games you see it has become far more common under Lancaster.

Number of times 50 or more points scored:
Josef Schmidt 2010/2011-2012/2013: 4 in 99 games, or 1 in every 24.75 games
Matt O'Connor 2013/2014-2014/2015: 2 in 61 games, or 1 in every 30.5 games
Leo Cullen 2015/2016: 2 in 30 games, or 1 in every 15 games
Stuart Lancaster 2016/2017-present: 31 in 198 games, or 1 in every 6.39 games

Lancaster's Leinster are brilliant at demolishing good but not outstanding opposition. They can make hay if the opposition are just a little bit off. If they're not quite good enough at the breakdown, or their defence isn't quite cohesive and aggressive enough; the way they play the game under Lancaster they can have an absolute field day if teams can't break up their rhythm. Games end up a bit like England's 55-35 win against France in the 2015 6N, except with the opposition usually not managing to put up such a big score.

Maybe this creates the perception among opposition fans that Leinster are this unstoppable force. This has been the case in the URC/ProXX before the South Africans joined, but the reality in the European Cup is quite different. They've won one Champions Cup in the 6 completed seasons under Lancaster, 1 European Cup over the last 10 iterations of the tournament and 2 different English teams have won it since Leinster's last success. It's a long way from the dominance of the Crusaders in Super Rugby [7 (?) consecutive titles] or even the success they themselves enjoyed for a four-year period under Cheika and then Schmidt - 3 European Cups in 4 years.

Personally, as a Leinster fan, I'd trade in this proclivity for putting up massive scores for a better ability to negotiate a way past the Saracens and La Rochelles of this world. Lancaster has been brilliant for Leinster (and great for Ireland too with the way he develops emergent players) but if you look at his track record with England in the 6N and Leinster in the European Cup he does seem to have an uncanny knack for finding ways of just losing out. Hopefully this year they can buck the trend.

[Rugbygramps]

I haven't seen Lancaster's coaching mentioned as a factor in Leinster's fortunes - at least not in relation to this game.

If you look at the regularity with which Leinster have scored 50 points or more in games you see it has become far more common under Lancaster.

Number of times 50 or more points scored:
Josef Schmidt 2010/2011-2012/2013: 4 in 99 games, or 1 in every 24.75 games
Matt O'Connor 2013/2014-2014/2015: 2 in 61 games, or 1 in every 30.5 games
Leo Cullen 2015/2016: 2 in 30 games, or 1 in every 15 games
Stuart Lancaster 2016/2017-present: 31 in 198 games, or 1 in every 6.39 games

Lancaster's Leinster are brilliant at demolishing good but not outstanding opposition. They can make hay if the opposition are just a little bit off. If they're not quite good enough at the breakdown, or their defence isn't quite cohesive and aggressive enough; the way they play the game under Lancaster they can have an absolute field day if teams can't break up their rhythm. Games end up a bit like England's 55-35 win against France in the 2015 6N, except with the opposition usually not managing to put up such a big score.

Maybe this creates the perception among opposition fans that Leinster are this unstoppable force. This has been the case in the URC/ProXX before the South Africans joined, but the reality in the European Cup is quite different. They've won one Champions Cup in the 6 completed seasons under Lancaster, 1 European Cup over the last 10 iterations of the tournament and 2 different English teams have won it since Leinster's last success. It's a long way from the dominance of the Crusaders in Super Rugby [7 (?) consecutive titles] or even the success they themselves enjoyed for a four-year period under Cheika and then Schmidt - 3 European Cups in 4 years.

Personally, as a Leinster fan, I'd trade in this proclivity for putting up massive scores for a better ability to negotiate a way past the Saracens and La Rochelles of this world. Lancaster has been brilliant for Leinster (and great for Ireland too with the way he develops emergent players) but if you look at his track record with England in the 6N and Leinster in the European Cup he does seem to have an uncanny knack for finding ways of just losing out. Hopefully this year they can buck the trend.

You haven’t been looking hard enough. Countless times people have mentioned the quality of coaches and players, and system.
No body is having a go at Leinster just pointing out the big differences that exist and possible reasons for them.

I can only assume Leinster aren’t used to receiving negative comments because you fans soon get very defensive

[GB72]

I haven't seen Lancaster's coaching mentioned as a factor in Leinster's fortunes - at least not in relation to this game.

If you look at the regularity with which Leinster have scored 50 points or more in games you see it has become far more common under Lancaster.

Number of times 50 or more points scored:
Josef Schmidt 2010/2011-2012/2013: 4 in 99 games, or 1 in every 24.75 games
Matt O'Connor 2013/2014-2014/2015: 2 in 61 games, or 1 in every 30.5 games
Leo Cullen 2015/2016: 2 in 30 games, or 1 in every 15 games
Stuart Lancaster 2016/2017-present: 31 in 198 games, or 1 in every 6.39 games

Lancaster's Leinster are brilliant at demolishing good but not outstanding opposition. They can make hay if the opposition are just a little bit off. If they're not quite good enough at the breakdown, or their defence isn't quite cohesive and aggressive enough; the way they play the game under Lancaster they can have an absolute field day if teams can't break up their rhythm. Games end up a bit like England's 55-35 win against France in the 2015 6N, except with the opposition usually not managing to put up such a big score.

Maybe this creates the perception among opposition fans that Leinster are this unstoppable force. This has been the case in the URC/ProXX before the South Africans joined, but the reality in the European Cup is quite different. They've won one Champions Cup in the 6 completed seasons under Lancaster, 1 European Cup over the last 10 iterations of the tournament and 2 different English teams have won it since Leinster's last success. It's a long way from the dominance of the Crusaders in Super Rugby [7 (?) consecutive titles] or even the success they themselves enjoyed for a four-year period under Cheika and then Schmidt - 3 European Cups in 4 years.

Personally, as a Leinster fan, I'd trade in this proclivity for putting up massive scores for a better ability to negotiate a way past the Saracens and La Rochelles of this world. Lancaster has been brilliant for Leinster (and great for Ireland too with the way he develops emergent players) but if you look at his track record with England in the 6N and Leinster in the European Cup he does seem to have an uncanny knack for finding ways of just losing out. Hopefully this year they can buck the trend.

You haven’t been looking hard enough. Countless times people have mentioned the quality of coaches and players, and system.
No body is having a go at Leinster just pointing out the big differences that exist and possible reasons for them.

I can only assume Leinster aren’t used to receiving negative comments because you fans soon get very defensive

You read that post totally differently to how I did as did not see anything suggesting anyone was having a go or being defensive, just a detailed description of why it may not all be as ideal as we see it. If anything a slight criticism that Lancaster may not be able to get teams over the line but makes them look great until they get there.

[RichieRich89]

I haven't seen Lancaster's coaching mentioned as a factor in Leinster's fortunes - at least not in relation to this game.

If you look at the regularity with which Leinster have scored 50 points or more in games you see it has become far more common under Lancaster.

Number of times 50 or more points scored:
Josef Schmidt 2010/2011-2012/2013: 4 in 99 games, or 1 in every 24.75 games
Matt O'Connor 2013/2014-2014/2015: 2 in 61 games, or 1 in every 30.5 games
Leo Cullen 2015/2016: 2 in 30 games, or 1 in every 15 games
Stuart Lancaster 2016/2017-present: 31 in 198 games, or 1 in every 6.39 games

Lancaster's Leinster are brilliant at demolishing good but not outstanding opposition. They can make hay if the opposition are just a little bit off. If they're not quite good enough at the breakdown, or their defence isn't quite cohesive and aggressive enough; the way they play the game under Lancaster they can have an absolute field day if teams can't break up their rhythm. Games end up a bit like England's 55-35 win against France in the 2015 6N, except with the opposition usually not managing to put up such a big score.

Maybe this creates the perception among opposition fans that Leinster are this unstoppable force. This has been the case in the URC/ProXX before the South Africans joined, but the reality in the European Cup is quite different. They've won one Champions Cup in the 6 completed seasons under Lancaster, 1 European Cup over the last 10 iterations of the tournament and 2 different English teams have won it since Leinster's last success. It's a long way from the dominance of the Crusaders in Super Rugby [7 (?) consecutive titles] or even the success they themselves enjoyed for a four-year period under Cheika and then Schmidt - 3 European Cups in 4 years.

Personally, as a Leinster fan, I'd trade in this proclivity for putting up massive scores for a better ability to negotiate a way past the Saracens and La Rochelles of this world. Lancaster has been brilliant for Leinster (and great for Ireland too with the way he develops emergent players) but if you look at his track record with England in the 6N and Leinster in the European Cup he does seem to have an uncanny knack for finding ways of just losing out. Hopefully this year they can buck the trend.

You haven’t been looking hard enough. Countless times people have mentioned the quality of coaches and players, and system.
No body is having a go at Leinster just pointing out the big differences that exist and possible reasons for them.

I can only assume Leinster aren’t used to receiving negative comments because you fans soon get very defensive

My comment was more about Lancaster's Leinster's ability to massacre teams they get on top of more than the overall quality of the coaching.

Negative comments don't bother me. Everyone's got an opinion, and you can't take stuff you read online too seriously. I understand it. It's human nature to feel a bit aggrieved when you lose out.

I'd just like a few more trophies to go with the criticism. Leinster have won the same number of European Cups as Exeter over the last 10 years. I think the negative comments are out of sync with how successful Leinster have actually been.

[Rugbygramps]

I understand the comments re Lancaster, and may be the reason for him moving.
He will certainly need to prove his worth at Racing, who appear to be on a downward spiral at present, and the French owners do not tolerate failure easily.

I stand by my earlier comments, and accept things can be read in different ways

[johnthegriff]

In Ireland they always had provincial rugby so those loyalties were an established thing, in Wales they did not so creating it by merging teams with their local rivals was doomed to failure, the only exceptions being Cardiff and Llanelli who retained their own identity. Ospreys require excessive funding and Dragons locally are still Newport in their dual purpose ground.
In England we have demanded that club's invest in their stadia, two that have done so massively could, under a regional rugby banner probably be merged to form a Midland or East Midlands team one venue would be selected and knowing the RFU that would be in Coventry, Birmingham or even Nottingham.
Our Premiership given the opportunity is healthy, it needs better marketing and it needs a second division with promotion and relegation to make it truly competitive, this is not a short term solution, football has had well over a century to get to its current level, as a professional sport we are still young. There will be winners and losers some teams will undoubtedly fail as businesses but others will succeed given time.
Welsh regional rugby has shown it cannot adequately fund its teams, Ireland has decided to concentrate most of funding on the capital city side. In France they have proved that the club team with a local identity works we should aim to mirror their system, they achieve greater tv revenue and supplement that with local business support. It matters not where the money comes from only that it is guaranteed and locked in and of course managed carefully.

[Rugbygramps]

Our Premiership given the opportunity is healthy, it needs better marketing and it needs a second division with promotion and relegation to make it truly competitive, this is not a short term solution, football has had well over a century to get to its current level, as a professional sport we are still young. There will be winners and losers some teams will undoubtedly fail as businesses but others will succeed given time.

This a point that is made frequently. None of these things is going to happen without a huge injection of cash, and no one has ever given a decent answer where that is going to come from.
You are right JTG there is no short term solution, unless radical steps are taken, which many are understandably against. The big question is will the game survive until the fix is in place.

[coolbawn]

This thread seems to have:
- issues which are arguable either way - the lifeblood of good forums like this one
- quite a lot of unintentional factual errors about Leinster, Irish and URC rugby; Irish & other posters provide corrections
- quite a lot of intentional factual errors about Leinster, Irish and URC rugby, ignoring the above corrections = delusions
- wind-ups.

Having said that, the comments thread on the BBC report on the match is far more extreme than this thread.

I think most Irish posters realise that there are going to be factual errors because English audiences can't easily / don't want to / don't have time to watch URC rugby and the URC changes so quickly that many opinions about the ProXX/URC might once have been correct but are now completely out-of-date. When their factual corrections are ignored and the same old tired errors are repeated, they maybe get more frustrated than defensive.

I'd also say that the vast majority of the Irish fans:
- are not drunken bores
- are not cocky about Leinster's partial / complete successes
- are always nervous about coming up against "big" teams or teams with "big" players like Skelton
- are quite well aware that Ireland might not get out of their RWC group or past the 1/4 final
- appreciate / respect Leicester the club, team and most supporters (and the fact that your coaching team was disrupted)

[wigworth]

Our Premiership given the opportunity is healthy, it needs better marketing and it needs a second division with promotion and relegation to make it truly competitive, this is not a short term solution, football has had well over a century to get to its current level, as a professional sport we are still young. There will be winners and losers some teams will undoubtedly fail as businesses but others will succeed given time.

This a point that is made frequently. None of these things is going to happen without a huge injection of cash, and no one has ever given a decent answer where that is going to come from.
You are right JTG there is no short term solution, unless radical steps are taken, which many are understandably against. The big question is will the game survive until the fix is in place.

Well realistically the cash is going to come from one of two places; the RFU or CVC. So people better pick their options carefully, you either are likely to get central contracts (seems the players are relatively keen on this) from the RFU if they have to step in or you are going to get some sort of further integration with the URC and the SA teams if you take more money from CVC.

[Rugbygramps]

Our Premiership given the opportunity is healthy, it needs better marketing and it needs a second division with promotion and relegation to make it truly competitive, this is not a short term solution, football has had well over a century to get to its current level, as a professional sport we are still young. There will be winners and losers some teams will undoubtedly fail as businesses but others will succeed given time.

This a point that is made frequently. None of these things is going to happen without a huge injection of cash, and no one has ever given a decent answer where that is going to come from.
You are right JTG there is no short term solution, unless radical steps are taken, which many are understandably against. The big question is will the game survive until the fix is in place.

Well realistically the cash is going to come from one of two places; the RFU or CVC. So people better pick their options carefully, you either are likely to get central contracts (seems the players are relatively keen on this) from the RFU if they have to step in or you are going to get some sort of further integration with the URC and the SA teams if you take more money from CVC.

Given those 2 options RFU would be my preference, though many may disagree

[Grumpy of Crumbie]

Regardless of what other nations are doing I think the biggest problem English Rugby faces is a declining level of interest in the game. This manifests itself in the number of kids wanting/having the opportunity to play the sport and the number of people wanting to watch it live. At the moment the six nations and world cups are getting plenty of hype and therefore generating much needed revenue from TV rights etc. This is helping to sustain the sport. But beneath that you cant help but think the game is built on shifting sands.

As others have said the game in England is different not only in the way it’s structured but also the other sports and activities it has to compete with to attract new participants and audiences.

For me the focus should be on how we improve the structure and marketability of the club game and not just at premiership level. A way to grow the game has to be found otherwise I’m in the steady decline into obscurity camp. If growth can be achieved then we will once again be able to compete in Europe and internationally. I don’t believe a knee jerk reaction in an attempt to win European Cups will provide any long term benefit.

I seem to recall fingers being pointed at Tigers during the ‘glory years’ regarding salaries, recruitment, sugar daddies etc. Learn from others, but don’t throw away history and traditions because they are the bedrock of our game. Don’t get mad, get even. The priority is to save the sport in England at professional level, the rest will follow!

[scarthin1]

I think we should experiment with English regions only for European/SA competition. May not work, of course, but would be interesting

[Offside]

Leicester and Leinster do have the bad experience of Matt O’Connor in common so we should probably have more sympathy for each other than anything else.

The main point that Tigers fans have not been corrected on is the salary spend of Leinster and the distribution of IRU money and any player movement decisions by IRU between the regions. This information would put other corrections into context. Is there a place we can find out the correct information regarding these?