Our friend Pat Lam talks about the academy boundary system

[johnthegriff]

The biggest problem is that so many state schools no longer teach or play rugby for any meaningful time. Tigers have a geographical area to source and recruit to the Academy, having looked at vast numbers only a relatively small number actually join our set up, factors like size and potential growth (parents size) are taken into account, Ged Glyn told me how much he liked big mums. The number of players already in a position, if you have room for an intake of 30 it has to be balanced across the team. There can be further problems as after G.C.S.E s Academy members have to move to schools willing to work with Tiger's training schedules and also provide the academic education appropriate to the student and acceptable to parents who may have reservations about relying solely on success in a sporting career.

[jgriffin]

There is of course the perennial issue of non-independent school, even non-rugby players with athletic talent. There are a lot of players like Brad Thorn who start later. The Irish have that covered with GAA sports where the skill sets are complementary. We don't.

[westwinds31]

What does he mean when he says Quine have done nothing?

I think he means that if he took a youngster on at Bristol who was previously with Quins, having joined their academy through one of the many schools that Quins hook into, then there's a clause where Bristol would have to pay a sum to Quins on an annual basis. It's in place to stop "poaching" of academy players, the thinking being that if you want that player badly enough, you'd be willing to pay the source club to take him off their hands. Which is why it doesn't happen much. I'm not sure whether it's purely an Academy thing - I suspect it is and if that players subsequently signed a first-team contract, then the payments would stop.

The whole system is poor in my view. Most players get picked up through the regional private schools, where more often than not there an ex-professional in place as Head of Rugby who is in touch with the club. Those players are shoe-horned into the Development process and then through to U16, where they'll probably then be part of the AASE Rugby programme, which is where a lot of the players are then plucked into the Senior Academy. Meanwhile, you've got other schools that play rugby who don't get a look in, even though there is quite clearly some talented lads who are involved.

[sk 88]

For Bristol I’m surprised there is not a few rich pickings not only from Somerset but also right down a fair chunk of the M4 corridor and right up north Towards Birmingham .. places like Marlborough and Stowe for example

To be fair to him that's literally his point. Stowe is in Northampton's catchment area. Marlborough is in Irish's. Bristol's "area" is basically Bristol Combination clubs and Western-Super-Mare.

[RagingBull]

I agree that a lot of talent goes missing.

Which makes it more ironic that lam is upset considering he has an owner that could prob find talent that does go missing since he can afford to get more scouts.
I think Hare used to go down to places like Essex to scout pretty sure that’s how freeman ended with us then Saints

I do think that the catchment areas should be redone especially now Wasps and Worcester are out of the equation.

[RagingBull]

For Bristol I’m surprised there is not a few rich pickings not only from Somerset but also right down a fair chunk of the M4 corridor and right up north Towards Birmingham .. places like Marlborough and Stowe for example

To be fair to him that's literally his point. Stowe is in Northampton's catchment area. Marlborough is in Irish's. Bristol's "area" is basically Bristol Combination clubs and Western-Super-Mare.

Both of which make no sense when you think about it

[sk 88]

There are a few bits to unpick.

The basic point: We have artificial barriers that stop young players moving between clubs that does not benefit the player and are mainly designed to penalise clubs.

That's pretty much correct and fair enough. You get £100k to pick up players from other academies as an extra cap, so can realistically only do it for a handful of players. The compensation payments are totally out of proportion to benefits or the player wages.

Other points: Bristol's academy area is small.

Again, pretty much fair enough, Bristol and Gloucester have c.50 clubs each in their areas of around 600k people. Tigers massive area covers 144 at least clubs and 6.5m people. There isn't a published map or list of how Middlesex is split but Middlesex RFU has over 130 clubs in it and the all three Prem clubs that draw from it pick up other large counties too. Irish have a "good academy" because they select from a very diverse and thriving rugby scene locally.

Other point: The academy boundaries are "strict".

Pretty much false. Or means so different to what many people will think is basically false. Firstly it's not just school, it's club and where your parents live. Secondly you can go to any academy centre that is near you. We used to have one in Hinckley that people could go to from Coventry for instance even though that was "Wasps" territory. Currently our website says we have 4 in Leicester, NLD, Staffs and Norfolk. I know Wasps had one at Oxford and Gloucester at Abingdon to both fish in the same pond basically. From Bristol's perspective it is truer as they're more pinned in with the Severn.

Other point: There is a "top 100 school" for rugby and this matters massively.

Disagree here, on both points. Bristol has other advantages, namely a much deeper club scene (per head of population the most in the country) and as a smaller area it is MUCH easier to get people together for training and selection to raise standards.

My thoughts
The compensation payments and academy cap are really out of proportion to the "problem" they are trying to solve. The local club already gets a pretty big advantage of seeing the boys from 13 to 16 or 18 and getting that chance to build a relationship and first dibs on offering them a contract. If another club is coming in an enticing away your players you really need to buck your ideas up and work on the why. Academies don't pay their way and are quite a burden so as well as RFU funding some compensation mechanism is probably fair but it should be a proportion of the wages offered. Say an additional 10%, or even 20%, not a flat £20k on a wage of only £20k. We've got the balance wrong between the various objectives and interested parties.

[sk 88]

For Bristol I’m surprised there is not a few rich pickings not only from Somerset but also right down a fair chunk of the M4 corridor and right up north Towards Birmingham .. places like Marlborough and Stowe for example

To be fair to him that's literally his point. Stowe is in Northampton's catchment area. Marlborough is in Irish's. Bristol's "area" is basically Bristol Combination clubs and Western-Super-Mare.

Both of which make no sense when you think about it

Yes exactly the academy carve it is one of the stinkier bits of the PRL cartel I think.

[sk 88]

The biggest problem is that so many state schools no longer teach or play rugby for any meaningful time. Tigers have a geographical area to source and recruit to the Academy, having looked at vast numbers only a relatively small number actually join our set up, factors like size and potential growth (parents size) are taken into account, Ged Glyn told me how much he liked big mums. The number of players already in a position, if you have room for an intake of 30 it has to be balanced across the team. There can be further problems as after G.C.S.E s Academy members have to move to schools willing to work with Tiger's training schedules and also provide the academic education appropriate to the student and acceptable to parents who may have reservations about relying solely on success in a sporting career.

But did you talk about the rugby too?

[Old Hob]

With the demise of Worcester, there is that whole area opened up; Worcester, Evesham and across towards Oxford or South to Cirencester.

[westwinds31]

Kind of still on the point, but this is where the Championship should kick in. This should be the route where young players come in, in my view. It's a good level, physical and demanding and a good test of a young player's credentials. Instead, a Premiership club has a Senior Academy, most of those players are holding tackle bags and setting the starting first-team 23 for the Friday/Saturday/Sunday. Some do go out on loan, but if there's a number of injuries in the first team, then the Senior Academy lads are kept back to make up the numbers and get hammered by the first team. Of course, some battle through and get into that first team pool, but the majority are frustrated, can't get another Premiership club so drop down a league to the Championship, get paid a pittance and then fall out of love with rugby when they realise that they're 24 and need more than £10k a week. Also, at the moment, academy players go out on loan to Championship clubs, thus denying someone who potentially has come through the University system or local schools the opportunity to test themselves and maybe get that springboard into the "holy grail" (Premiership). That is position dependent - so if you're a hooker and a hooker comes to your club from a Premiership club, then you could find yourself on the bench or worse still, travelling reserve for half a season. It's all wrong. I speak from experience, as a family member was involved in an Academy and is now at a Championship club - although he's been sensible and got a degree/masters - but he's been frustrated due to the above and is now moving down another level to National 1. There's only so long that you can hang on hoping that the dream comes true. A lot of the guys that he came through to the Academy with are still at that club, and are literally on next to nothing, money wise.

[Chobbsy]

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/rug ... nd-8294921

Bristol Bears director of rugby Pat Lam believes the Premiership’s “flawed” boundary system for academy recruitment is having a detrimental effect on the fortunes of the England team and wants to see wholesale changes to the structure.

“I can tell you now that I’ve been here nearly six years, the system is flawed for young players,” Lam said. “When you look and you ask the question, and I used to always say this when I was back in New Zealand and coaching in Ireland, ‘how is the country that has the most resources, financially and player-wise, not the No1 rugby nation in the world?’ And the problem that you’ve got is that it’s the only country that has a system that has boundaries on young players which is, to me, the biggest problem you’ve got.

“What that means, and I do this is my whole coaching philosophy is that I’m a big believer in bringing through young players, is, and I only recognise this now because the salary cap got dropped to £5m, when you have boundaries, the top 100 schools in the country - let alone the other schools - where are they all? In that top 100, Bristol has two schools in the top 100; Harlequins have 23 schools in the top 100. Ourselves, Bath and Exeter have the least schools.

“If I wanted to bring a young player through, and invest 2-3 years in him. To do that I might have to pay him 20k but I have to pay Harlequins, who have done nothing at that stage - okay, he might have come through their academy - I’ve got to give them 30k; that 50k that I’ve paid goes into the salary cap. So why would I bother doing that?

He does raise a good point but then what do you do about it? If you give clubs free reign then the richest and or most successful clubs will hoover up the best talent anyway. So does this mean we need the RFU to decide which club gets which young players based on the needs of the club or which club the RFU deems has the best environment for the player to thrive in? Or maybe we just go with a draft system like American sports?

For me there isn't a perfect solution there's just different compromises.

The boundaries were set up many many years ago since then clubs have moved, my grandson is Wasp / Worcester DPP despite him living in Milton Keynes, which has Sarries just down the road, Saints on the doorstep and then some club called Tigers a little further up the road.

Some of his club mates are in the same DPP yet others are in Saints because of where their school is. I am really greatful that he has been selected for any DPP but I think the boundaries need to be reassessed.

[mol2]

If all clubs had adequate academies it might allow a better flow of young players into the championship and Premiership.

It is frankly bonkers that a side should have any say in the future of a player once their contract ends.
It would likely be illegal under the Bosman ruling so the clubs are probably sailing close to the wind by the arrangements that are in place.

What has to happen is that all pro clubs should be required to have a meaningful academy setup. Junior players should be free to move. The big clubs have a responsibility to the game as a whole. The RFU should support this. If this happened we see more young players getting their chances below the Premiership before stepping up if they make it.

[Alandrin75]

Tigers runs its DPP program to capture players from Leicestershire, staffordshire, Nottingham Lincs and Derbyshire and East Anglia. So they will potentially capture all public and state schools in that region who can nominate plus all the clubs.

When they exit the DPP and are retained by tigers they are sign posted to the nominated schools to continue their learnings, these schools include Brooksby Melton College, Denstone, Stamford, Oakham, Uppingham. The main factor for all these is they offer boarding facilities for the players.

[Alandrin75]

It is frankly bonkers that a side should have any say in the future of a player once their contract ends.
It would likely be illegal under the Bosman ruling so the clubs are probably sailing close to the wind by the arrangements that are in place.

Under Bosman, when a player under a certain age leaves a club on a free to another a transfer fee is still involved and if the clubs dont agree then a tribunal sets the fee.