Tigers v Bath (H)- Saturday 04th March 2023 - KO 15:00

[Hot_Charlie]

OK, so let's say that I agree refereeing is appalling (I don't) and something simply must be done... what? What must be done?

Give the refs a jolly good telling off? Sack or demote the refs? Or perhaps work with the refs to help them improve.... which already happens.

The main issue is not the ref it is the TMO, refs not getting it right is excusable, TMO's not getting it right isn't.

So, same question, what's the solution? Do we not think they are trying to be as good as they can be? Or that no one is working with them to improve? Or that there's a long queue of others to take their place if they're sacked?

I understand the frustration about incorrect decisions, but is that not a part of most sports, even those with far simpler and/or more easily enforceable rules/laws than rugby? If a sport as wealthy and comparatively simple as football can't eradicate officiating controversy, why do we expect or demand near perfection from Rugby Union?

And as an aside, are TMO's well paid? As far as I can tell, they get peanuts, but I might be wrong.

The solution I think is two-fold. Double TMOs for a start - one to watch live and refer incidents to the 2nd TMO and then review them formally if the assistant TMO thinks they need looking at. Again this weekend a certain TMO waited until multiple replays of a high tackle were shown before apparently intervening, just as they did for Faz's tackle at Gloucester.

Second is get rid of the "onfield" try decision. The "compelling evidence" argument is becoming a farce, as illustrated by Northampton's try against Bristol on Friday night. Despite David Rose telling Tempo multiple times that the ball had come forwards our of Aaron Hinkley's hand and had travelled clearly forward, according to Tempo, who is just looking on a grainy big screen, the evidence wasn't good enough.

[CrumblingTerrace]

I wish people would stop defending incompetent referees. They are highly paid professionals and although it isn’t an easy job you should be able to spot forward passes, foot in touch and ball grounding after multiple replays on the big screen. There are too many incorrect decisions in every game many of which decide matches.Those that say we couldn’t do any better are quite right but we are not paid to do so. Why are these poor decisions not questioned by the powers that be and if they are why does nothing change ?

Made some corrections...

I wish people would stop attacking referees. They are paid significantly less than players and although it's an incredibly demanding job, they are expected to spot every forward pass, foot in touch and ball grounding by interpreting replays on the big screen exactly the same as we do. There are hundreds of correct decisions in every game, many of which decide matches. Those that say we couldn’t do any better are quite right but we attack them nonetheless. Why are their good decisions not praised by the powers that be, and if they were, perhaps we might respect them more?

[Big Dai]

I was watching "Slammmed." on BBC Wales. If you can get it. Watch it.The things that struck me.

The number of "normal" sized people playing the game. Scrums that folded together with straight put ins Line outs where the winger threw in and a fight broke out. Proper rucking.Kicking a heavy ball and drops.A few neck high tackles that would be red cards today.

BUT.

Gerald Davies goes in on a muddy touchline and scores. Were his feet in touch? I don't know. Sir said try, so try it was.

The commentator didn't cast any doubt on the situation (Bill McLaren) and we got on with life.

In my view it's better to stick with sir and two touch judges and accept the occasional error than have a TMO, and commentators who think they are TMO and STILL have glaring errors. (Forward passes this weekend a key example)

As for yellow and red cards. If sir thinks it's an accidental clash.....yellow. Malicious....
Red....
And the whole bang shoot can be reviewed and dissected later and the appropriate sanction dished out.

I had a gutsful of the professional era!

[Scott1]

I wish people would stop defending incompetent referees. They are highly paid professionals and although it isn’t an easy job you should be able to spot forward passes, foot in touch and ball grounding after multiple replays on the big screen. There are too many incorrect decisions in every game many of which decide matches.Those that say we couldn’t do any better are quite right but we are not paid to do so. Why are these poor decisions not questioned by the powers that be and if they are why does nothing change ?

Made some corrections...

I wish people would stop attacking referees. They are paid significantly less than players and although it's an incredibly demanding job, they are expected to spot every forward pass, foot in touch and ball grounding by interpreting replays on the big screen exactly the same as we do. There are hundreds of correct decisions in every game, many of which decide matches. Those that say we couldn’t do any better are quite right but we attack them nonetheless. Why are their good decisions not praised by the powers that be, and if they were, perhaps we might respect them more?

No ones saying they expect them to get every decision right ,not sure where you've read that! What folk are expecting is an elite level employee in his chosen profession to get easy decisions right. Fixed.

[Nofrontteeth]

Ah! Those days when wingers were smaller than props, kicking was to post or touch and "Sir was the sole arbiter of the laws".
Touch Judges provided by the competing teams and a pint with the players and officials in the club house. Oh and no TMO's.
Reminiscing is good for the soul.

[thebearisstilldeano]

I was watching "Slammmed." on BBC Wales. If you can get it. Watch it.The things that struck me.

The number of "normal" sized people playing the game. Scrums that folded together with straight put ins Line outs where the winger threw in and a fight broke out. Proper rucking.Kicking a heavy ball and drops.A few neck high tackles that would be red cards today.

BUT.

Gerald Davies goes in on a muddy touchline and scores. Were his feet in touch? I don't know. Sir said try, so try it was.

The commentator didn't cast any doubt on the situation (Bill McLaren) and we got on with life.

In my view it's better to stick with sir and two touch judges and accept the occasional error than have a TMO, and commentators who think they are TMO and STILL have glaring errors. (Forward passes this weekend a key example)

As for yellow and red cards. If sir thinks it's an accidental clash.....yellow. Malicious....
Red....
And the whole bang shoot can be reviewed and dissected later and the appropriate sanction dished out.

I had a gutsful of the professional era!

Agree 100% Big Dai
If we are looking for a reason why referees (and TMOs) make poor decisions it is surely that they have too many things to consider.
Every year there seem to be more laws added to the book.

IMHO the answer is to re-set the clock. Take the law book back to basics. Rugby is a physical contact sport in which the ball may be kicked or carried but must be passed backwards. It is time I feel to re-examine each and every law and ask of it, "Does this reflect and support the core principles of the game and encourage the values it supports?"

The laws should focus on making a game that is fun to play, easy to officiate and simple to watch (this debate ties in to the wider discussion elsewhere on the forum about the wider future of the game and attracting new spectators).

Come on let's get the bonfire warmed up.

[CrumblingTerrace]

I wish people would stop defending incompetent referees. They are highly paid professionals and although it isn’t an easy job you should be able to spot forward passes, foot in touch and ball grounding after multiple replays on the big screen. There are too many incorrect decisions in every game many of which decide matches.Those that say we couldn’t do any better are quite right but we are not paid to do so. Why are these poor decisions not questioned by the powers that be and if they are why does nothing change ?

Made some corrections...

I wish people would stop attacking referees. They are paid significantly less than players and although it's an incredibly demanding job, they are expected to spot every forward pass, foot in touch and ball grounding by interpreting replays on the big screen exactly the same as we do. There are hundreds of correct decisions in every game, many of which decide matches. Those that say we couldn’t do any better are quite right but we attack them nonetheless. Why are their good decisions not praised by the powers that be, and if they were, perhaps we might respect them more?

No ones saying they expect them to get every decision right ,not sure where you've read that! What folk are expecting is an elite level employee in his chosen profession to get easy decisions right. Fixed.

It feels implied, though I may have misinterpreted that. There is a strive for certainty here that I think is unrealistic: 'get the easy decisions right' or 'get the big decisions right'. If it were truly that simple, we wouldn't be debating this.

Football's use of VAR has shown that increased use of technology can help clarify/correct decisions to a finer degree that the human eye in real-time, but the controversy and heated debate (commonly veering into abuse of officials) doesn't disappear. We just get angry about different things.

[TigerFeetSteve]

I think this thread has strayed miles off topic now. It certainly isn’t a review of our win vs Bath atm...

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Football's use of VAR has shown that increased use of technology can help clarify/correct decisions to a finer degree that the human eye in real-time, but the controversy and heated debate (commonly veering into abuse of officials) doesn't disappear. We just get angry about different things.

I don't think Football ever really wanted to remove controversy from the game.

It proves though, that the way technology is used is what causes issues. No-one is saying a ref in real time should be able to spot everything. But use the technology correctly and we should be able to get to the correct decision most of the time. A ball either goes forwards or it doesn't, a ball either touches the ground or it doesn't, a foot either touches the line or it doesn't.

There will always be decisions that are more diffcult to get to as there is interpretation, was there intention, was it direct contact with the head, did he go for it with 2 hands. Lets at least try and get the easy ones right though.

[Hot_Charlie]

No ones saying they expect them to get every decision right ,not sure where you've read that! What folk are expecting is an elite level employee in his chosen profession to get easy decisions right. Fixed.

Exactly. Simple things correctly. Not overruling a TMO when they state the initial contact is clearly to the head, or a pass was clearly forward etc.

Complex, nuanced decisions, less so.

[Big Dai]

I think this thread has strayed miles off topic now. It certainly isn’t a review of our win vs Bath atm...

It's indisciplined old folk discussing "stuff". What do you expect?

[Nofrontteeth]

I'm with Dai
I'll get my 'Sanatogen'

[chris111]

I think this thread has strayed miles off topic now. It certainly isn’t a review of our win vs Bath atm...

It's indisciplined old folk discussing "stuff". What do you expect?

Yes, but can the moderators see this for themselves, or are they waiting for the Forum TMO to intervene? Maybe they feel that it’s not a deliberate non sequitur, just a ‘codger incident’

[Big Dai]

I think this thread has strayed miles off topic now. It certainly isn’t a review of our win vs Bath atm...

It's indisciplined old folk discussing "stuff". What do you expect?

Yes, but can the moderators see this for themselves, or are they waiting for the Forum TMO to intervene? Maybe they feel that it’s not a deliberate non sequitur, just a ‘codger incident’

Dunno.......I'll ask Austin!

[voice of the crumbie]

It's indisciplined old folk discussing "stuff". What do you expect?

Yes, but can the moderators see this for themselves, or are they waiting for the Forum TMO to intervene? Maybe they feel that it’s not a deliberate non sequitur, just a ‘codger incident’

Dunno.......I'll ask Austin!

As long as you don't ask Dalaglio