GP / SIX NATIONS PLUS OTHERS - W/E 11-13TH FEBRUARY 2022

[Scott1]

Not sure what score would have been sufficient vs Italy for some people?

Trying to judge how good a team is vs Italy is just a massive waste of time.

They mentioned during commentary an average of 40 points per game against Italy, but I reckon there must be a couple of 60 point thumpings in there

That stat is a bit misleading.

Average winning margin England vs Italy is 28 points.
Average winning margin England vs Italy in Italy is 24 points.
Last time England put 60 past Italy was 2001.
This year was the first time in 6 Nations history that Italy have failed to score a point vs England.
This year was the 3rd biggest margin of victory for England vs Italy in 6 Nations since 2004.
Only 2 point lesser winning margin than 2003 at Twickenham.
England have scored 40+ points in just 7 of the previous 18 matches vs Italy.

So a very good result for us then!

[Tiglon]

They mentioned during commentary an average of 40 points per game against Italy, but I reckon there must be a couple of 60 point thumpings in there

That stat is a bit misleading.

Average winning margin England vs Italy is 28 points.
Average winning margin England vs Italy in Italy is 24 points.
Last time England put 60 past Italy was 2001.
This year was the first time in 6 Nations history that Italy have failed to score a point vs England.
This year was the 3rd biggest margin of victory for England vs Italy in 6 Nations since 2004.
Only 2 point lesser winning margin than 2003 at Twickenham.
England have scored 40+ points in just 7 of the previous 18 matches vs Italy.

So a very good result for us then!

All pretty meaningless really

TBP win = job done. What other tangible achievement is possible in a 6 Nations match vs Italy?

[westwinds31]

This is why the England head coach job is a nightmare job and I respect Eddie Jones for a) taking it on and b) sticking it out for so long. Always being told who to pick, how England have got the biggest pool of players to pick from (not sure how that helps actually) and no performance is ever good enough. I think back to this time last year, the clamour for Simmonds, Smith, Dombrandt etc and now they're in, people still aren't happy, or rather they're happy that these players are featuring, but they're not happy with the way that they've been "told to play"....so it's good that Jones has picked them, but now it's a coaching problem, he's not getting the best out of them. I'd have packed it in a while ago.

I couldn't agree more, it is almost as if club rugby and international rugby are different standards of players they are playing against. Personally I have not seen anything from Simmonds either for England or the Lions that would give me any indication that he will be a good international player, he seems to be very very ordinary at international level.

There you go. A very good club player who operates superbly with 2 big locks and 2 big flankers either side, to compensate for his lack of bulk. The big carriers bash it up to 5m out and Simmonds uses his strength, explosive power over a short distance to run in tries galore….except for this season. He’s not international class. Sorry everyone !

[Tigers86asw]

This is why the England head coach job is a nightmare job and I respect Eddie Jones for a) taking it on and b) sticking it out for so long. Always being told who to pick, how England have got the biggest pool of players to pick from (not sure how that helps actually) and no performance is ever good enough. I think back to this time last year, the clamour for Simmonds, Smith, Dombrandt etc and now they're in, people still aren't happy, or rather they're happy that these players are featuring, but they're not happy with the way that they've been "told to play"....so it's good that Jones has picked them, but now it's a coaching problem, he's not getting the best out of them. I'd have packed it in a while ago.

I couldn't agree more, it is almost as if club rugby and international rugby are different standards of players they are playing against. Personally I have not seen anything from Simmonds either for England or the Lions that would give me any indication that he will be a good international player, he seems to be very very ordinary at international level.

There you go. A very good club player who operates superbly with 2 big locks and 2 big flankers either side, to compensate for his lack of bulk. The big carriers bash it up to 5m out and Simmonds uses his strength, explosive power over a short distance to run in tries galore….except for this season. He’s not international class. Sorry everyone !

Simmons is a world class rugby player but not a world class number 8. He’s the 12 England are looking for!

[wigworth]

I couldn't agree more, it is almost as if club rugby and international rugby are different standards of players they are playing against. Personally I have not seen anything from Simmonds either for England or the Lions that would give me any indication that he will be a good international player, he seems to be very very ordinary at international level.

There you go. A very good club player who operates superbly with 2 big locks and 2 big flankers either side, to compensate for his lack of bulk. The big carriers bash it up to 5m out and Simmonds uses his strength, explosive power over a short distance to run in tries galore….except for this season. He’s not international class. Sorry everyone !

Simmons is a world class rugby player but not a world class number 8. He’s the 12 England are looking for!

Haha if only Eddie read this forum.

[BengalTiger]

Another utter shambles, England looked like 23 strangers who met in the pub car park 15 mins before kick off, it takes a special coach to make so many good players look so poor!

Geez, get a grip. Watching the game back, a lot of England’s issues were self-inflicted due to basic skill errors. You telling me these ‘good players’ can blame the coach for that? And do you think the French were a shambles last week as well?

I certainly can blame the coach! there was little cohesion or understanding between the players on Sunday and this is not a new phenomena when England play, only when they are playing hoof it into the rafters do the players seem to understand what they should do.
A good coach makes the team better than the sum of the parts, a poor coach makes good players look average, this is what I see in a lot of England matches since the world cup.

[ay2oh]

Playing players out of position doesn’t help. With Tuilagi, Lawes and Launchbury back we should be much better. Don’t think Ewells or Stuart are test class either.

[Tiglon]

Sometimes it is the players who are at fault for the disaster that is a record breaking win

Ewels is decent enough, he's not taking the international scene by storm but I don't think he has let anyone down either. I agree Stuart isn't quite up to scratch at that level, but there aren't so many obvious alternatives IMO.

[DeadlyDunc]

Another utter shambles, England looked like 23 strangers who met in the pub car park 15 mins before kick off, it takes a special coach to make so many good players look so poor!

Geez, get a grip. Watching the game back, a lot of England’s issues were self-inflicted due to basic skill errors. You telling me these ‘good players’ can blame the coach for that? And do you think the French were a shambles last week as well?

I certainly can blame the coach! there was little cohesion or understanding between the players on Sunday and this is not a new phenomena when England play, only when they are playing hoof it into the rafters do the players seem to understand what they should do.
A good coach makes the team better than the sum of the parts, a poor coach makes good players look average, this is what I see in a lot of England matches since the world cup.

Surely because of the importance of the RWC over and above all other competitions, the point is that it’s the job of an international coach to try new combinations and players in different positions between RWCs.

Some work, some don’t but the game away at Italy in a hostile atmosphere (even if the opposition is fair average) is a good test for experimenting?

Let’s face it, barring injuries we can all probably agree on selecting 10 out of 15 positions but, particularly without Farrell and Manu, there are positions in the backs up for grabs for those young and inexperienced players.

[westwinds31]

Another utter shambles, England looked like 23 strangers who met in the pub car park 15 mins before kick off, it takes a special coach to make so many good players look so poor!

Geez, get a grip. Watching the game back, a lot of England’s issues were self-inflicted due to basic skill errors. You telling me these ‘good players’ can blame the coach for that? And do you think the French were a shambles last week as well?

I certainly can blame the coach! there was little cohesion or understanding between the players on Sunday and this is not a new phenomena when England play, only when they are playing hoof it into the rafters do the players seem to understand what they should do.
A good coach makes the team better than the sum of the parts, a poor coach makes good players look average, this is what I see in a lot of England matches since the world cup.

The coach will put the plan and direction of travel on the table and say "this is how I want us to play" but the players have to implement it and adapt if it doesn't work, the coach can't do that for them, he can get messages on, talk at half-time or make substitutions but aside from that, it's down to the 15 on the field. How often do we hear from coaches "training etc is player led, they drive the standards and put the plan in place" ?

Everyone is playing the territorial game now. Kick to compete or kick and then and then try and suffocate the opposition, but in their half, trying to force a mistake. The Springboks won a World Cup based on it !

On selection, I ask myself, for example "why isn't Atkinson playing at 12, in his preferred position....and why is someone who isn't used to that position being put in there" - the answer of course is, the coach and staff don't trust that player to start, maybe it's a defensive thing, that the kicking game isn't what they want etc, but it's certainly not a made up thing on the spot.

[fortysix]

Someone mentioned Sam Simmonds as a 12, I agree, and Barbeary as well.

[DeadlyDunc]

Someone mentioned Sam Simmonds as a 12, I agree, and Barbeary as well.

Is it really that easy to say to an 8 (or in Barbearys case 2/8) and say right - play international rugby at centre even though you’ve not played there before?

Surely it’s not that simple or every back rower of that style would switch positions to suit?

[Old Hob]

I do think we have become a bit too precious about positions - "He's a 6, not a 7" etc. If you have skills and something of a rugby brain, some versatility should be expected. Converting a 7 to a 12 these days should be far simpler than in the old days when forwards looked upon ball carrying as akin to knitting sand

[Soggypitch]

Someone mentioned Sam Simmonds as a 12, I agree, and Barbeary as well.

Is it really that easy to say to an 8 (or in Barbearys case 2/8) and say right - play international rugby at centre even though you’ve not played there before?

Surely it’s not that simple or every back rower of that style would switch positions to suit?

Yes but not many back row players have Simmons pace (the equal of most centres), so that is an interesting call.

Barbeary is an out and out forward, with great line breaking power, I hope he plays 8 v Wales with Curry at 7 and Lawes at 6.

[DeadlyDunc]

Someone mentioned Sam Simmonds as a 12, I agree, and Barbeary as well.

Is it really that easy to say to an 8 (or in Barbearys case 2/8) and say right - play international rugby at centre even though you’ve not played there before?

Surely it’s not that simple or every back rower of that style would switch positions to suit?

Yes but not many back row players have Simmons pace (the equal of most centres), so that is an interesting call.

Barbeary is an out and out forward, with great line breaking power, I hope he plays 8 v Wales with Curry at 7 and Lawes at 6.

I can almost guarantee Barbeary won’t start against Wales - Eddie won’t experiment in such a big game.

I expect Ludlow & Lawes to start and also think it’s likely (very likely) Manu will start too