England vs USA - 4th July 2021

[Traveller]

Whilst I am not a fan of a 6 2 bench. I can understand it against certain teams and when there are two starters who can play 10. It backfired badly today. I really cannot understand the logic. I thought Freddie moved up another level, but for all those who complain about Ford's defence, is Smith really any better in that department ? It should have been a win by 50 plus. I suspect next week will be more ruthless.

I'd go further. Is anyone now seriously suggesting that we would perform better at the 2023 World Cup with Randall and Smith at half back rather than Youngs and either Ford of Farrell. There are probably only 20+ international games to go before the first WC pool game.

This is a bit harsh. Smith and Randall were playing in a scratch team with a makeshift backline - another 9 and 10 playing centre and wing and Smith only joined a week ago after the final.

I don't think it is harsh at all. If Youngs / Ford and either Farrell had been playing. Pretty confident the USA wouldn't have got a sniff, precisely because they would have known what a scratch team needed in order to take control. Smith and Randall are so far behind those three IMO I think its laughable to argue that either of them might overtake the others before the 2023. I'd already rather have JVP than Randall. But .......that's just my opinion.....

[kk20gb30]

Something of a disjointed England performance I believe.However , injuries not withstanding where possible I would personally be inclined to keep the same side next time out.The last 6 Nations saw a series of short comings highlighted with the England side.The summer series offers a chance to see and assess 'new' talent and this has (for me) to be given more than a single opportunity.Wholesale changes now and a similar performance again would only give credence to the idea that those who participated in the 6 Nations are without equal , and this is not necessarily the case.
I believe that we need to see if the present crop - those that were selected against the USA - can move forward and improve as both individuals and as a collective.Give these guys the opportunity again against Canada and let us see if they develop, learn and move on.

[DingDong]

When that starting XV face any 6 Nations side then that is the time to judge performances fairly. At best that was more of an exhibition game and a dead rubber for England.

[Offside]

I agree it is not a fair test. I think that England side may have had problems against Italy in a proper 6N game. Certainly would not beat them England 6N team this year in my view.

[JP14]

It’s also worth noting that because of logistics, COVID restrictions, and the fact that the MLR season stateside is still ongoing all meant that this American team only started training last Wednesday I believe.

[mol2]

Randall is simply to small to play internationally - - I know there are a few short international scrum halves like Faf De Clerke but they are bulked up substantially compared to Randall.

Smith did OK but he will make the fly half channel a target for every crash ball runner. Certainly it would be bonkers to play him and Randall together against stronger opposition. Not all international rugby can be played on the front foot.

2nd row looked a bit threadbare. Hope Wells gets the nod next week.

Not sure Robson is an international.

Pack needs to work on maul defense.

[Scott1]

I think people are being incredibly unfair. Look at our start and then look how the game progressed when we lost Malins and Lawrence. Theres a massive clue for you there

[Wes]

astonishing that players are being written off based on a single game in a totally scratch team!

On that basis, the 1998 England touring side should have ditched players such as Wilkinson, Vickery and Lewesey.....

It'd be horrible being a player now just knowing that whatever you do, whatever happens, there will be forum after forum of supporters saying you're not / never will be good enough!

[Scott1]

astonishing that players are being written off based on a single game in a totally scratch team!

On that basis, the 1998 England touring side should have ditched players such as Wilkinson, Vickery and Lewesey.....

It'd be horrible being a player now just knowing that whatever you do, whatever happens, there will be forum after forum of supporters saying you're not / never will be good enough!

Good post!

[sam16111986]

astonishing that players are being written off based on a single game in a totally scratch team!

On that basis, the 1998 England touring side should have ditched players such as Wilkinson, Vickery and Lewesey.....

It'd be horrible being a player now just knowing that whatever you do, whatever happens, there will be forum after forum of supporters saying you're not / never will be good enough!

There's not many chances at international level you need to play yourself into contention when you get the chance. I think a fair number of the 23 have put their hands up for further consideration. Some have really looked like bright prospects for the future Heyes, Blamire, Randall and Steward. Malins on the wing might be revisited as well as that was working.

Problem is if you have a stinker with your chance then at the minute there are options waiting to come in for most positions. So if you haven't got credit in the bank it's tough.

[Traveller]

astonishing that players are being written off based on a single game in a totally scratch team!

On that basis, the 1998 England touring side should have ditched players such as Wilkinson, Vickery and Lewesey.....

It'd be horrible being a player now just knowing that whatever you do, whatever happens, there will be forum after forum of supporters saying you're not / never will be good enough!

There's not many chances at international level you need to play yourself into contention when you get the chance. I think a fair number of the 23 have put their hands up for further consideration. Some have really looked like bright prospects for the future Heyes, Blamire, Randall and Steward. Malins on the wing might be revisited as well as that was working.

Problem is if you have a stinker with your chance then at the minute there are options waiting to come in for most positions. So if you haven't got credit in the bank it's tough.

For the record I was not ‘writing off’ Randall or Smith. It would be stupid to do so. I just cannot see them replacing Youngs and either Ford or Farrell for WC 2023. Conversely, EJ clearly needs to develop a 9 (the cupboard is bare) and give Smith opportunities. Both being talented. By way of Wilkinson, Vickery, and Lewsey. The tour of death bought Wilkinson, one of the greatest players of all time to the fore. Vickery was in and out, not because of any lack of talent but because of injury. He was only 21 when first selected as a TH. Lewsey played for England three times in 1998 but not again until 2001, so missing the 1999 WC.

[Scott1]

I know you have to take the opponents into consideration,but looking at Genge and Underhills performances yesterday it still amazes me how Gatland didn't pick them for The Lions,especially against SA!

[BFG]

astonishing that players are being written off based on a single game in a totally scratch team!

On that basis, the 1998 England touring side should have ditched players such as Wilkinson, Vickery and Lewesey.....

It'd be horrible being a player now just knowing that whatever you do, whatever happens, there will be forum after forum of supporters saying you're not / never will be good enough!

What is astonishing is the hype around players like Smith.
Having watched Quins run in, from an English perspective I think Marler, Chisolm, Kennington and Dombrandt are more deserving of hype from Quins pack.
Lynagh and Murley and possibly Green if he qualifies as English are more worthy of international recognition from their backs, electric.
Smith is not better than Ford in my opinion and I do not even think Smith is as good as Joe Simmonds.
For me Lozowksi was superb at 10 against Leicester in the Challenge Cup and I am hoping he will get a chance behind Ford and Farrell at some stage, he reminded me of Wilkinson a lot.

[Scott1]

Smith is definitely better than Simmonds for me ,no contest and he's definitely more dangerous than Ford. Once his game management catches up he will be different gravy. Although I will caveat that with the thinking that Ford might be being suffocated due to gameplans

[Scott1]

Smith has it all attacking wise, speed,passes off both hands,miss pass,show and go,steps off both feet,pump pass etc. The vast majority of the time he will make the right decision too. To say it's not about Smith at Quins is to say they would've performed the same this season in the backs without him in the team which I'm afraid is one of the worse takes I've ever heard. Absolute lunacy but each to their own I suppose