I don't think it is harsh at all. If Youngs / Ford and either Farrell had been playing. Pretty confident the USA wouldn't have got a sniff, precisely because they would have known what a scratch team needed in order to take control. Smith and Randall are so far behind those three IMO I think its laughable to argue that either of them might overtake the others before the 2023. I'd already rather have JVP than Randall. But .......that's just my opinion.....Old Hob wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:40 pmThis is a bit harsh. Smith and Randall were playing in a scratch team with a makeshift backline - another 9 and 10 playing centre and wing and Smith only joined a week ago after the final.Traveller wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:13 pmI'd go further. Is anyone now seriously suggesting that we would perform better at the 2023 World Cup with Randall and Smith at half back rather than Youngs and either Ford of Farrell. There are probably only 20+ international games to go before the first WC pool game.Downsouth wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:22 pm Whilst I am not a fan of a 6 2 bench. I can understand it against certain teams and when there are two starters who can play 10. It backfired badly today. I really cannot understand the logic. I thought Freddie moved up another level, but for all those who complain about Ford's defence, is Smith really any better in that department ? It should have been a win by 50 plus. I suspect next week will be more ruthless.
England vs USA - 4th July 2021
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Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
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Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
Something of a disjointed England performance I believe.However , injuries not withstanding where possible I would personally be inclined to keep the same side next time out.The last 6 Nations saw a series of short comings highlighted with the England side.The summer series offers a chance to see and assess 'new' talent and this has (for me) to be given more than a single opportunity.Wholesale changes now and a similar performance again would only give credence to the idea that those who participated in the 6 Nations are without equal , and this is not necessarily the case.
I believe that we need to see if the present crop - those that were selected against the USA - can move forward and improve as both individuals and as a collective.Give these guys the opportunity again against Canada and let us see if they develop, learn and move on.
I believe that we need to see if the present crop - those that were selected against the USA - can move forward and improve as both individuals and as a collective.Give these guys the opportunity again against Canada and let us see if they develop, learn and move on.
Seemingly heading rapidly toward senility .....Not long or far to go now , in fact, getting worse daily.....
Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
When that starting XV face any 6 Nations side then that is the time to judge performances fairly. At best that was more of an exhibition game and a dead rubber for England.
Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
I agree it is not a fair test. I think that England side may have had problems against Italy in a proper 6N game. Certainly would not beat them England 6N team this year in my view.
Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
It’s also worth noting that because of logistics, COVID restrictions, and the fact that the MLR season stateside is still ongoing all meant that this American team only started training last Wednesday I believe.
Formerly of Burbaaage (not Inkleh), now up north at uni
Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
Randall is simply to small to play internationally - - I know there are a few short international scrum halves like Faf De Clerke but they are bulked up substantially compared to Randall.
Smith did OK but he will make the fly half channel a target for every crash ball runner. Certainly it would be bonkers to play him and Randall together against stronger opposition. Not all international rugby can be played on the front foot.
2nd row looked a bit threadbare. Hope Wells gets the nod next week.
Not sure Robson is an international.
Pack needs to work on maul defense.
Smith did OK but he will make the fly half channel a target for every crash ball runner. Certainly it would be bonkers to play him and Randall together against stronger opposition. Not all international rugby can be played on the front foot.
2nd row looked a bit threadbare. Hope Wells gets the nod next week.
Not sure Robson is an international.
Pack needs to work on maul defense.
Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
I think people are being incredibly unfair. Look at our start and then look how the game progressed when we lost Malins and Lawrence. Theres a massive clue for you there
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
astonishing that players are being written off based on a single game in a totally scratch team!
On that basis, the 1998 England touring side should have ditched players such as Wilkinson, Vickery and Lewesey.....
It'd be horrible being a player now just knowing that whatever you do, whatever happens, there will be forum after forum of supporters saying you're not / never will be good enough!
On that basis, the 1998 England touring side should have ditched players such as Wilkinson, Vickery and Lewesey.....
It'd be horrible being a player now just knowing that whatever you do, whatever happens, there will be forum after forum of supporters saying you're not / never will be good enough!
I only live there to wind up the population!
Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
Good post!Wes wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:31 am astonishing that players are being written off based on a single game in a totally scratch team!
On that basis, the 1998 England touring side should have ditched players such as Wilkinson, Vickery and Lewesey.....
It'd be horrible being a player now just knowing that whatever you do, whatever happens, there will be forum after forum of supporters saying you're not / never will be good enough!
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
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Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
There's not many chances at international level you need to play yourself into contention when you get the chance. I think a fair number of the 23 have put their hands up for further consideration. Some have really looked like bright prospects for the future Heyes, Blamire, Randall and Steward. Malins on the wing might be revisited as well as that was working.Wes wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:31 am astonishing that players are being written off based on a single game in a totally scratch team!
On that basis, the 1998 England touring side should have ditched players such as Wilkinson, Vickery and Lewesey.....
It'd be horrible being a player now just knowing that whatever you do, whatever happens, there will be forum after forum of supporters saying you're not / never will be good enough!
Problem is if you have a stinker with your chance then at the minute there are options waiting to come in for most positions. So if you haven't got credit in the bank it's tough.
Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
For the record I was not ‘writing off’ Randall or Smith. It would be stupid to do so. I just cannot see them replacing Youngs and either Ford or Farrell for WC 2023. Conversely, EJ clearly needs to develop a 9 (the cupboard is bare) and give Smith opportunities. Both being talented. By way of Wilkinson, Vickery, and Lewsey. The tour of death bought Wilkinson, one of the greatest players of all time to the fore. Vickery was in and out, not because of any lack of talent but because of injury. He was only 21 when first selected as a TH. Lewsey played for England three times in 1998 but not again until 2001, so missing the 1999 WC.sam16111986 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:05 pmThere's not many chances at international level you need to play yourself into contention when you get the chance. I think a fair number of the 23 have put their hands up for further consideration. Some have really looked like bright prospects for the future Heyes, Blamire, Randall and Steward. Malins on the wing might be revisited as well as that was working.Wes wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:31 am astonishing that players are being written off based on a single game in a totally scratch team!
On that basis, the 1998 England touring side should have ditched players such as Wilkinson, Vickery and Lewesey.....
It'd be horrible being a player now just knowing that whatever you do, whatever happens, there will be forum after forum of supporters saying you're not / never will be good enough!
Problem is if you have a stinker with your chance then at the minute there are options waiting to come in for most positions. So if you haven't got credit in the bank it's tough.
Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
I know you have to take the opponents into consideration,but looking at Genge and Underhills performances yesterday it still amazes me how Gatland didn't pick them for The Lions,especially against SA!
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
What is astonishing is the hype around players like Smith.Wes wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:31 am astonishing that players are being written off based on a single game in a totally scratch team!
On that basis, the 1998 England touring side should have ditched players such as Wilkinson, Vickery and Lewesey.....
It'd be horrible being a player now just knowing that whatever you do, whatever happens, there will be forum after forum of supporters saying you're not / never will be good enough!
Having watched Quins run in, from an English perspective I think Marler, Chisolm, Kennington and Dombrandt are more deserving of hype from Quins pack.
Lynagh and Murley and possibly Green if he qualifies as English are more worthy of international recognition from their backs, electric.
Smith is not better than Ford in my opinion and I do not even think Smith is as good as Joe Simmonds.
For me Lozowksi was superb at 10 against Leicester in the Challenge Cup and I am hoping he will get a chance behind Ford and Farrell at some stage, he reminded me of Wilkinson a lot.
Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
Smith is definitely better than Simmonds for me ,no contest and he's definitely more dangerous than Ford. Once his game management catches up he will be different gravy. Although I will caveat that with the thinking that Ford might be being suffocated due to gameplans
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Re: England vs USA - 4th July 2021
Smith has it all attacking wise, speed,passes off both hands,miss pass,show and go,steps off both feet,pump pass etc. The vast majority of the time he will make the right decision too. To say it's not about Smith at Quins is to say they would've performed the same this season in the backs without him in the team which I'm afraid is one of the worse takes I've ever heard. Absolute lunacy but each to their own I suppose
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer