LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD EPISODE VI: The Return of the Burns

[Scott1]

Imagine JVP and Smith ripping it up at international level!

Finn or Marcus?

Raffi Quirke is going to have something to say about JVP being the heir apparent, he's another very talented young 9. Really good to see them both breaking through early as it's a position England are looking a little light in.

Marcus. I know when we played Quins,even though Smith was always dangerous,Ford old manned him and gave him a lesson in game management. But once that comes with Smith he will be close to being the worlds best FH,his ceiling is scarily high.

[Farmboy]

Might we need to cover 2 scrum half's away with England?

[Dokie]

Might we need to cover 2 scrum half's away with England?

No

[longlivethecrumbie]

Might we need to cover 2 scrum half's away with England?

No

You say that, but we have had situations before where we've had England #1 and #2 in the same position before (albeit not for some time, mind you)

[Dokie]

Might we need to cover 2 scrum half's away with England?

No

You say that, but we have had situations before where we've had England #1 and #2 in the same position before (albeit not for some time, mind you)

I’m just being realistic. JVP is finding his way in the game. He’s not going from U20s to the senior squad overnight, like Reffell and Steward before him. Unlike many, I don’t own a pair of Tigers tinted glasses.

[Offside]

“Unlike many, I don’t own a pair of Tigers tinted glasses.”

Why not? They look pretty cool!

[longlivethecrumbie]

“Unlike many, I don’t own a pair of Tigers tinted glasses.”

Why not? They look pretty cool!

[Traveller]

No

You say that, but we have had situations before where we've had England #1 and #2 in the same position before (albeit not for some time, mind you)

I’m just being realistic. JVP is finding his way in the game. He’s not going from U20s to the senior squad overnight, like Reffell and Steward before him. Unlike many, I don’t own a pair of Tigers tinted glasses.

Martin aged 19? Curry aged 19?

[sam16111986]

You say that, but we have had situations before where we've had England #1 and #2 in the same position before (albeit not for some time, mind you)

I’m just being realistic. JVP is finding his way in the game. He’s not going from U20s to the senior squad overnight, like Reffell and Steward before him. Unlike many, I don’t own a pair of Tigers tinted glasses.

Martin aged 19? Curry aged 19?

Technically I don't think Martin played for the under 20s as though he was selected he picked up an injury. Lockdown hit, he came back fit and started to make an impression for the first team. Got injured again, came back and went into the 6N shadow squad then got called up and capped.

JVP's potential for immediate international integration relies on two things, the first is all three of the selected scrum halfs for the summer tour doing the proverbial crapping the bed. Then he also needs to do enough to convince Borthwick to rotate him and Youngs and lose Wigglesworth as the third choice. I think JVP will be an England international but will breakthrough post World Cup at 22 and then be battling for the shirt against Quirke.

[Traveller]

I’m just being realistic. JVP is finding his way in the game. He’s not going from U20s to the senior squad overnight, like Reffell and Steward before him. Unlike many, I don’t own a pair of Tigers tinted glasses.

Martin aged 19? Curry aged 19?

Technically I don't think Martin played for the under 20s as though he was selected he picked up an injury. Lockdown hit, he came back fit and started to make an impression for the first team. Got injured again, came back and went into the 6N shadow squad then got called up and capped.

JVP's potential for immediate international integration relies on two things, the first is all three of the selected scrum halfs for the summer tour doing the proverbial crapping the bed. Then he also needs to do enough to convince Borthwick to rotate him and Youngs and lose Wigglesworth as the third choice. I think JVP will be an England international but will breakthrough post World Cup at 22 and then be battling for the shirt against Quirke.

I don't agree with all of your detail. But I do agree with your overall conclusion i.e. JVP will have an international career after the 2023 WC rather than before it. That said I think sheer talent will trump a couple of summer 'A' squad and U20 matches. For example Ben White had an extraordinary age group pedigree, yet I never saw it in a Tigers shirt. He seemed miles away from the full test arena. In contrast, for me, and it's only a personal view, JVP is the most exciting English SH I've seen in a decade. That is to take nothing away from Quirke. Just a personal view. The test then won't be what happens in the summer at England squad level and U20. It will simply be about EJ deciding where the genuine talent.

[sam16111986]

Martin aged 19? Curry aged 19?

Technically I don't think Martin played for the under 20s as though he was selected he picked up an injury. Lockdown hit, he came back fit and started to make an impression for the first team. Got injured again, came back and went into the 6N shadow squad then got called up and capped.

JVP's potential for immediate international integration relies on two things, the first is all three of the selected scrum halfs for the summer tour doing the proverbial crapping the bed. Then he also needs to do enough to convince Borthwick to rotate him and Youngs and lose Wigglesworth as the third choice. I think JVP will be an England international but will breakthrough post World Cup at 22 and then be battling for the shirt against Quirke.

I don't agree with all of your detail. But I do agree with your overall conclusion i.e. JVP will have an international career after the 2023 WC rather than before it. That said I think sheer talent will trump a couple of summer 'A' squad and U20 matches. For example Ben White had an extraordinary age group pedigree, yet I never saw it in a Tigers shirt. He seemed miles away from the full test arena. In contrast, for me, and it's only a personal view, JVP is the most exciting English SH I've seen in a decade. That is to take nothing away from Quirke. Just a personal view. The test then won't be what happens in the summer at England squad level and U20. It will simply be about EJ deciding where the genuine talent.

I think JVP is the most well rounded scrum half to come out of age group rugby at his age for some time. Probably since Ben Youngs. He's got to tighten up a couple is aspects of his game, notably his box kicking though that has improved quite a bit he was noticeably flagging towards the end of the game yesterday and got charged down twice. For such a young player his decision making is exceptional. Playing under 20s rugby he currently looks on another level and I think in hindsight the England coaches might wish they'd brought him into the full set up. The under 20 coaches will disagree because JVP and Smith in tandem are controlling games at the minute.

[RagingBull]

Jake Sterland and Jack Vernum sign for Leicester Lions
Wouldn't be surprised if both might end up in our longer term plans.

[sk 88]

Phil Tandoh (U-18 this season) has signed with Stade Francais. Great move for him.

[Hot_Charlie]

TBH I expected Simmons to surpass him in attacking mode, injuries allowing, as has JvP.

That is a fair point; he almost became the number 2 by default with Simmons injuries and Harrison retiring.

Don’t feel the same as other reference Lewis; there are better, younger (cheaper) talents behind him in Henderson, Martin and Chessum. It’s not he’s not had a chance, just they offer more and more potential.

The key word there - CHEAPER! Pre-covid Lewis would have been brought through the team and the others would have been another year in the wings.

Exactly. League position, under pressure coaches, lack of A-league and the Covid has been massively limiting for some player’s development.

[Ian Cant]

For me personally I see JVP as our number 1 scrum half as he plays what he sees in front of him which you hope Borthwick will cultivate. As great as Ben Youngs is I feel JVP will be more like Oz: the games Healey won for us by doing something unexpected was incredible: nothing more so that the first Heineken Cup win.
JVP will be even better as he won’t be made to play on the wing or as an emergency fly half.As for Marcus Smith he should be given the chance( not just a couple of games) to perform behind a full strength England pack but I cannot see Eddie Jones being brave enough to let Smith run the show.
Whilst talking of talent, and not with rose tinted a Tiger spectacles, young a George Martin is a huge talent.
Talking of being brave: surely young Lynagh should be tried too.