Rebuilding England By The Pound

[TigerFeetSteve]

Reffell, but that's more so the Welsh don't nick him from Tigers...

Can he play for the full England side if he’s played for Welsh U20?

Yes only senior caps count I believe. Pretty sure he counts as EQP.

Charles Piutau played U20's for both Tonga and New Zealand.

[TheTigerKing]

Ford and Youngs have been criticised but I actually think both performed well in the 6N outside of Ford having a stinker yesterday.

The obvious picks for me are:

Back row of Underhill, Curry and Simmonds.
Lock: Itoje
Front Row, Sinckler and one of LCD or George

Backs. Watson


That leaves 8 places up for grabs in starting line up.

Personally id stick with Youngs and Ford at 9/10. Give Smith some game time from the bench.

Farrell should be in the squad as a centre. But not a guaranteed starter.

Steward and De Glanville should be brought into the squad as 15 options. Both better than Daly or Malins IMO.

Slade can't defend so he's out for me.

We need to bring some pace and power in at wing and centre. I'd argue May shouldn't be an automatic starter given his form but keeps a squad place.

Launchbury is a clear pick of healthy and a good combination with Itoje.

Main thing, more power in the backs, Simmonds at 8, a proper 15 and let them play what's infront of them. We have some genuinely world class forwards in Itoje, Curry, Underhill and Simmonds, let's build around that.

[RichieB]

Jones took a gamble on playing the Saracens players who would under normal circumstances get in to the team. The Covid bubble has been a barrier to making changes during the course of the competition. I expect that lessons will be learned and will be very surprised if Eddie Jones gets the sack. The autumn internationals will have more significance.

Hi Tigerbeat
Do you know if there is a way to add some sort of grid or table onto comments? Would be useful to draw up a list of players by position. Could make it easier to create one as well for the Tigers.

[Dokie]

Can he play for the full England side if he’s played for Welsh U20?

Yes only senior caps count I believe. Pretty sure he counts as EQP.

Charles Piutau played U20's for both Tonga and New Zealand.

Unless they’ve changed the rules, playing for a country’s first or second level team stops you playing for another country. The Saxons were England’s (do they still exist?) but there’s been no Wales A for many years, so it’s their under 20s.

[DeadlyDunc]

I’d say the following positions and selections are set if players are fit and available.

One or two might need a kick up the backside in the lead up to the RWC but I can’t see them not starting as it stands at the moment.

1.
2. George
3. sinckler
4.
5. Itoje
6/7 Underhill
7/6 Curry
8. B. Vunipola
9.
10.
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Tuilagi
14. Watson
15.

Personally, I’d put YBY and Ford in at 9 and 10 but I accept it’s up for grabs, maybe Farrell too but I don’t see him missing out if I’m honest.

I do think this season is a bit of a misnomer without crowds and Sarries not playing so hard for Jones once he’d decided to stick with the Sarries boys and not switch it up for the tournament

Being honest I would have done the same thing and expect all of George, Itoje, Farrell, B Vunipola and Daly to tour with the Lions although Mako might miss out

Form is temporary and class is permanent and all that

[TigerFeetSteve]

Yes only senior caps count I believe. Pretty sure he counts as EQP.

Charles Piutau played U20's for both Tonga and New Zealand.

Unless they’ve changed the rules, playing for a country’s first or second level team stops you playing for another country. The Saxons were England’s (do they still exist?) but there’s been no Wales A for many years, so it’s their under 20s.

https://www.rugbyworld.com/news/rugbys- ... ules-90995

According to this since the start 2018 U20's can no longer count as your "next representative team"

That means he's not been "captured" by Wales unless he played U20's in 2017 or before.

[kk20gb30]

26/10/19
England 19 New Zealand 7

Fair to say England never recovered from this victory.
What ever else Eddie Jones is - he is also a strong character.Single mindedness , clear vision and strength of purpose can all be mistaken for (but are only a step away from) stubbornness.
Everyone thinks they have a solution and it is easy to critisise - but equally I do not believe that anyone doubts that more is required from the England team and its individual players.
Jones is paid to make decisions - they wont always be right , same as Lancaster before him and it would be the same if Rob Baxter was in his position.
Just for a second though , hold fire. It was not too long ago that Wayne Pivac was perhaps pretty close to heading for his local Job centre as it looked as though Wales could not even buy a win .. his side now have (with some luck on the way admittedly) have just missed out on a Grand Slam with the clock in the red.These are strange times with circumstances to match and sporting God's can and are fickle.
England will come again - simply too much talent in depth.

[Tiger_in_Birmingham]

Charles Piutau played U20's for both Tonga and New Zealand.

Unless they’ve changed the rules, playing for a country’s first or second level team stops you playing for another country. The Saxons were England’s (do they still exist?) but there’s been no Wales A for many years, so it’s their under 20s.

https://www.rugbyworld.com/news/rugbys- ... ules-90995

According to this since the start 2018 U20's can no longer count as your "next representative team"

That means he's not been "captured" by Wales unless he played U20's in 2017 or before.

And, if I'm remembering right, even then only if against another country's next team - so against England wouldn't count because because England have the Saxons.

Wales and Ireland had an argument about this a few years ago where Wales thought they'd locked in quite a few players but Ireland had the Wolfhounds at the time so the players hadn't been 'locked' to Wales

[mol2]

I know Wales decided that their under 20s side would be deemed to lock players.
However the rest of world rugby seemed to only count senior appearances as binding - be that for the main side or the 2nd string (Saxons, Wolfhounds, Maori and the like)

I don't think playing at a junior level should lock players to that country and it sounds like world rugby has clarified this.

[Alandrin75]

Back row of Underhill, Curry and Simmonds.


Main thing, more power in the backs, Simmonds at 8, a proper 15 and let them play what's infront of them. We have some genuinely world class forwards in Itoje, Curry, Underhill and Simmonds, let's build around that.

I have read a few articles about Sam Simmonds and the best was talking about Simmonds for Chiefs and Simmonds for England. The belief in the article is Chiefs build there back row and to an extent second row around Simmonds. With Curry and Underhill packing down as flankers with Sam it is thought that the back row would be under powered in the set piece whereas Chiefs play some sizeable lumps in the 6 and 7 shirts.

Also from a ball carrying perspective I saw a lot of Crofty in Simmonds on Saturday, with him standing out in the backs or out on the wing where he can use his base and power to blast through backs challenges. England need a power based ball carrying threat which is what Billy is supposed to do.

At Englands best we have three principle ball carriers in Billy, Mako and Manu, with secondary carriers in Sinckler, Maro and AN Other lock. By using these they tie up defenses and Curry and Underhill are there to create quick ball to release either the next runner or to engage the backs. With Simmonds in the team we would lose some of this and would require a whole new way to play which I am not sure Eddie is comfortable with.

[Leicestertinytiger]

England do seem to play better with a bigger 8, not sure if Simmonds would be the solution. Although Conan and Aldritt are hardly massive and both Ireland and France looked good.

For me going forwards, Barbeary should focus on 8 for Wasps and make that his own shirt. He’s got the potential to be the best carrier in the NH. Dombrandt too could be the sort of 8 England need. Them two would be my picks on the summer tour.

Don’t think England are in a bad a place as many pundits are making out. Granted we need some fresh talent injected into the squad, but we’ve got the players.

Biggest weakness is 15. Stick Daly on the left wing. Really need Steward, Hodge or De Granville to develop and get someone solid at the back.

[GB72]

I’d say the following positions and selections are set if players are fit and available.

One or two might need a kick up the backside in the lead up to the RWC but I can’t see them not starting as it stands at the moment.

1.
2. George
3. sinckler
4.
5. Itoje
6/7 Underhill
7/6 Curry
8. B. Vunipola
9.
10.
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Tuilagi
14. Watson
15.

Personally, I’d put YBY and Ford in at 9 and 10 but I accept it’s up for grabs, maybe Farrell too but I don’t see him missing out if I’m honest.

I do think this season is a bit of a misnomer without crowds and Sarries not playing so hard for Jones once he’d decided to stick with the Sarries boys and not switch it up for the tournament

Being honest I would have done the same thing and expect all of George, Itoje, Farrell, B Vunipola and Daly to tour with the Lions although Mako might miss out

Form is temporary and class is permanent and all that

Sadly I am note sure that I can see Manu pulling on an England shirt again. Much points to a move abroad at the end of the season but, if not, and were signing him, I would be insisting on an international retirement so as his game time can be better managed and there is more chance of a playing return on the investment. Not something I say with any pleasure but I honestly think that, if he can get back to fitness, the Lions may be the last hurrah on the international stage.

[BFG]

England need a bit of tweaking in my opinion.
Dombrandt probably deserves a fair crack at No8, he is a Dayglo/Deano style No8 who brings others into play, something that Billy V has not been doing enough of for quite a while as he looks more and more like a prop around the park at international level.
I'd also have Sam Simmonds around, he is a slightly different type of No8 who is more about pace but still it's about getting in behind and bringing others into play.
I'd try Marchant at 12 with Joseph at 13 outside Ford.
I'd even be tempted to include Kelly if he keeps performing well.
Smith and Slade on the bench providing fly half and centre cover.
Watson at full back.
Underhill to return and Ted Hill.
Ben Spencer.
Curtis Langdon.
Launchbury back in with Itoje and two big youngsters in Isiekwe and Martin.

[Dokie]

England do seem to play better with a bigger 8, not sure if Simmonds would be the solution. Although Conan and Aldritt are hardly massive and both Ireland and France looked good.

For me going forwards, Barbeary should focus on 8 for Wasps and make that his own shirt. He’s got the potential to be the best carrier in the NH. Dombrandt too could be the sort of 8 England need. Them two would be my picks on the summer tour.

Don’t think England are in a bad a place as many pundits are making out. Granted we need some fresh talent injected into the squad, but we’ve got the players.

Biggest weakness is 15. Stick Daly on the left wing. Really need Steward, Hodge or De Granville to develop and get someone solid at the back.

Ironically, England have masses of potential at 15. Of the current squad, I’d go for Watson. Then, apart from Malins, I’ve been impressed with Nick David whenever I’ve seen him and also Tom Parton.

[westwinds31]

Ford and Youngs have been criticised but I actually think both performed well in the 6N outside of Ford having a stinker yesterday.

The obvious picks for me are:

Back row of Underhill, Curry and Simmonds.
Lock: Itoje
Front Row, Sinckler and one of LCD or George

Backs. Watson


That leaves 8 places up for grabs in starting line up.

Personally id stick with Youngs and Ford at 9/10. Give Smith some game time from the bench.

Farrell should be in the squad as a centre. But not a guaranteed starter.

Steward and De Glanville should be brought into the squad as 15 options. Both better than Daly or Malins IMO.

Slade can't defend so he's out for me.

We need to bring some pace and power in at wing and centre. I'd argue May shouldn't be an automatic starter given his form but keeps a squad place.

Launchbury is a clear pick of healthy and a good combination with Itoje.

Main thing, more power in the backs, Simmonds at 8, a proper 15 and let them play what's infront of them. We have some genuinely world class forwards in Itoje, Curry, Underhill and Simmonds, let's build around that.

Slade can’t defend......