Progress Under Borthwick
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Progress Under Borthwick
Right so a few people have said we've not really turned a corner.
I disagree we've stopped the decline and are on the way up, we're not a title challenging team or even a top 4 team
After 7 rounds:
20/21: 15 points
19/20: 6 points
Ok so we've only played 5 games on the pitch
After 5 games on the pitch
20/21: 9 points
19/20: 4 points
To my mind this is because we've made clear progress in a number of key areas.
Fitness/determination to play for 80.
Better squad balance.
Better lineout.
Better ball carrying forwards.
Better defence.
Glimpses of better attack starting to show.
Better kick chase (though we still do it too much, in general this year has been better)
All in all good progress IMO under Borthwick, yes we want further improvement, but so far have seen enough to suggest we will comfortably survive on merit which we haven't said in the last few years, and I suspect we'll be in and around 5th-7th with a bit more progression through the season. Will that be a successful season. No success is silverware, but I'll be more than content to see good progress in getting back to where we can challenge.
What do I think we need to do as a minimum to show progress, finish top 10 (which I'm very confident in doing).
I disagree we've stopped the decline and are on the way up, we're not a title challenging team or even a top 4 team
After 7 rounds:
20/21: 15 points
19/20: 6 points
Ok so we've only played 5 games on the pitch
After 5 games on the pitch
20/21: 9 points
19/20: 4 points
To my mind this is because we've made clear progress in a number of key areas.
Fitness/determination to play for 80.
Better squad balance.
Better lineout.
Better ball carrying forwards.
Better defence.
Glimpses of better attack starting to show.
Better kick chase (though we still do it too much, in general this year has been better)
All in all good progress IMO under Borthwick, yes we want further improvement, but so far have seen enough to suggest we will comfortably survive on merit which we haven't said in the last few years, and I suspect we'll be in and around 5th-7th with a bit more progression through the season. Will that be a successful season. No success is silverware, but I'll be more than content to see good progress in getting back to where we can challenge.
What do I think we need to do as a minimum to show progress, finish top 10 (which I'm very confident in doing).
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick
We have generally turned round on the pitch IMO.
We have not fixed being able to be consistent though.
Whilst the former is nice the latter is the more important though.
We have not fixed being able to be consistent though.
Whilst the former is nice the latter is the more important though.
Re: Progress Under Borthwick
I think the main difference between then and now is the rebalancing of the squad to be less reliant on current internationals.
I'm not convinced that the style of play or tactics are any more effective, simply a case of better players available more of the time. That's not a criticism of Borthwick, his job isn't about short term progress - or at least it shouldn't be.
We seem to have a better understanding of what we need in the squad, and that is huge progress.
There are signs that the culture is improving and that lack of commitment is no longer tolerated - again, important progress.
I think the position of 7th is due to covid distortions and Bath and Gloucester being unbelievably poor so far this season. That doesn't bother me though, I can see the long term building blocks being slowly put in place and that's what matters.
Off the pitch, we are still lacking transparency and communication, and it seems those at the top have lost interest in even pretending to be interested in supporters. That's a shame, but I'm in it for the rugby which I can still enjoy so I'm not going to waste my time worrying about it.
I'm not convinced that the style of play or tactics are any more effective, simply a case of better players available more of the time. That's not a criticism of Borthwick, his job isn't about short term progress - or at least it shouldn't be.
We seem to have a better understanding of what we need in the squad, and that is huge progress.
There are signs that the culture is improving and that lack of commitment is no longer tolerated - again, important progress.
I think the position of 7th is due to covid distortions and Bath and Gloucester being unbelievably poor so far this season. That doesn't bother me though, I can see the long term building blocks being slowly put in place and that's what matters.
Off the pitch, we are still lacking transparency and communication, and it seems those at the top have lost interest in even pretending to be interested in supporters. That's a shame, but I'm in it for the rugby which I can still enjoy so I'm not going to waste my time worrying about it.
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick
I think that's very true.Tiglon wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:23 pm I think the main difference between then and now is the rebalancing of the squad to be less reliant on current internationals.
I'm not convinced that the style of play or tactics are any more effective, simply a case of better players available more of the time. That's not a criticism of Borthwick, his job isn't about short term progress - or at least it shouldn't be.
We seem to have a better understanding of what we need in the squad, and that is huge progress.
There are signs that the culture is improving and that lack of commitment is no longer tolerated - again, important progress.
I think the position of 7th is due to covid distortions and Bath and Gloucester being unbelievably poor so far this season. That doesn't bother me though, I can see the long term building blocks being slowly put in place and that's what matters.
Off the pitch, we are still lacking transparency and communication, and it seems those at the top have lost interest in even pretending to be interested in supporters. That's a shame, but I'm in it for the rugby which I can still enjoy so I'm not going to waste my time worrying about it.
IMO
We have clearly made progress since SB's arrival.
The bigger question is probably, given the amount of backing that SB's been given (eg getting rid of staff, changing the structure of the club off field). Have we made ENOUGH progress under Borthwick? (at the moment I'm in the yes column though that wording of the question makes it a lot tighter)
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
Re: Progress Under Borthwick
Too soon to say. I don't think the journey back to the top is going to be 1% obvious improvement every game. If there was a line on a graph it wouldn't be a straight one and I don't expect things to get much better on the pitch this season.TigerFeetSteve wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:27 pmI think that's very true.Tiglon wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:23 pm I think the main difference between then and now is the rebalancing of the squad to be less reliant on current internationals.
I'm not convinced that the style of play or tactics are any more effective, simply a case of better players available more of the time. That's not a criticism of Borthwick, his job isn't about short term progress - or at least it shouldn't be.
We seem to have a better understanding of what we need in the squad, and that is huge progress.
There are signs that the culture is improving and that lack of commitment is no longer tolerated - again, important progress.
I think the position of 7th is due to covid distortions and Bath and Gloucester being unbelievably poor so far this season. That doesn't bother me though, I can see the long term building blocks being slowly put in place and that's what matters.
Off the pitch, we are still lacking transparency and communication, and it seems those at the top have lost interest in even pretending to be interested in supporters. That's a shame, but I'm in it for the rugby which I can still enjoy so I'm not going to waste my time worrying about it.
IMO
We have clearly made progress since SB's arrival.
The bigger question is probably, given the amount of backing that SB's been given (eg getting rid of staff, changing the structure of the club off field). Have we made ENOUGH progress under Borthwick? (at the moment I'm in the yes column though that wording of the question makes it a lot tighter)
The improvements we need to be making are largely behind the scenes and I believe SB understands what needs to be done. It might take a couple of years for us to know whether he is capable of doing it.
We had to give SB that kind of backing, or we would be in the same position as Quins with Gustard.
Re: Progress Under Borthwick
I honestly believe that the team has improved you can tell in the interviews with opposition post game.
I have no doubt the results will come.
What I would love to see is Tigers develop a brand of rugby and have that filter down through all the teams...making transition up to the first team easier for players.
I have no doubt the results will come.
What I would love to see is Tigers develop a brand of rugby and have that filter down through all the teams...making transition up to the first team easier for players.
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick
Largely agree with all the points above. It was never going to be a quick fix and I think another 2 years and we will be in a great place once again. We have off loaded some hefty wages and some fringe players and have made a few shrewd signings with a few more potentially in the offing. A few academy lads have really stood up this season and our squad is better and fitter than the past few seasons and there are definite signs of a recovery.
It is hard to tell the level of our recovery at this stage as our wins have been against 2 of the worst teams in the league this season (Glos and Bath), we were given a win against Saints and we got beaten reasonably comprehensively by Exeter and rather frustratingly lost without even securing a LBP against Irish and Sale. Our form in Europe has been decent although we only snuck the TBP at the death against Brive and actually our results in Europe last year were just as impressive.
I am not saying we haven't made progress, I definitely think we have; however, I think we will know far more about this Tigers side and the stage of the recovery after the next few rounds. Worcester at home and Quins away are 2 matches that we could/should be winning. Certainly not easy games but I think these 2 matches will tell us a lot more about the progress under SB thus far. With all the disruptions due to COVID and internationals missing it is very hard to tell much with any certainty at this stage. Win the next 2 and we will certainly be looking like the corner has been turned. Lose, and perhaps the road to recovery will be slightly longer than expected - but I do not think that this will be the case. 8 points from the next 2 matches and a return to form and winning ways. COYT![:smt023](./images/smilies/023.gif)
It is hard to tell the level of our recovery at this stage as our wins have been against 2 of the worst teams in the league this season (Glos and Bath), we were given a win against Saints and we got beaten reasonably comprehensively by Exeter and rather frustratingly lost without even securing a LBP against Irish and Sale. Our form in Europe has been decent although we only snuck the TBP at the death against Brive and actually our results in Europe last year were just as impressive.
I am not saying we haven't made progress, I definitely think we have; however, I think we will know far more about this Tigers side and the stage of the recovery after the next few rounds. Worcester at home and Quins away are 2 matches that we could/should be winning. Certainly not easy games but I think these 2 matches will tell us a lot more about the progress under SB thus far. With all the disruptions due to COVID and internationals missing it is very hard to tell much with any certainty at this stage. Win the next 2 and we will certainly be looking like the corner has been turned. Lose, and perhaps the road to recovery will be slightly longer than expected - but I do not think that this will be the case. 8 points from the next 2 matches and a return to form and winning ways. COYT
![:smt023](./images/smilies/023.gif)
Oakham lad born and bred, Tigers season ticket holder who is enjoying steady progression back towards the good old days!
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick
Fitness is down to Aled, so he gets the credit there.
The Lineout & drive are improved both attack & defensively.
Discipline is still poor.
Structured gameplan is no better, the unstructured is better & perhaps we should trust ourselves to loosen up a bit.
Their seems to be a reluctance to change the tactics on field if they aren't working, much like during Cockers reign.
For SB just on the positive side at present.
What is certainly worse since GM left/sacked is the communication to the supporters, I don't know how Bondi is filling his time, but it isn't producing "content" for the supporters, he has a real talent to both inform & entertain, why he isn't at present is intriguing.
The Lineout & drive are improved both attack & defensively.
Discipline is still poor.
Structured gameplan is no better, the unstructured is better & perhaps we should trust ourselves to loosen up a bit.
Their seems to be a reluctance to change the tactics on field if they aren't working, much like during Cockers reign.
For SB just on the positive side at present.
What is certainly worse since GM left/sacked is the communication to the supporters, I don't know how Bondi is filling his time, but it isn't producing "content" for the supporters, he has a real talent to both inform & entertain, why he isn't at present is intriguing.
To win is not as important as playing with style!
Re: Progress Under Borthwick
Having played one game in five weeks before the Sale does not help so match sharpness and hardened was always going to be a possible dip in the team. Sale have played 5 or 6 games since the beginning of December and had few disruptions due to Covid. They had a good half back pairing and a backline outside them that could play.
Have seen steps in the right direction and this was never going to be turned around overnight. More testing days ahead and hopefully a run of games unaffected by Covid will bring some consistency and confidence to the Team.
Have seen steps in the right direction and this was never going to be turned around overnight. More testing days ahead and hopefully a run of games unaffected by Covid will bring some consistency and confidence to the Team.
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick
Early days yet, we are in a marathon and not a sprint, there are others around us in similar situation and not performing, it's a funny old year.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
Re: Progress Under Borthwick
Covid and the stop / start during the season and cancellation of fixtures has not allowed teams to establish their first teams and gain valuable game team to gel those understandings and partnerships and play as a unit. A very strange world that we are currently living in and having effects on the game.
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick
You could also say we have just had a big block of seemingly uninterrupted training since the Bath game & we looked clueless at times, the 2 league games we have won this season have come after minimal group training.Tigerbeat wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:28 pm Covid and the stop / start during the season and cancellation of fixtures has not allowed teams to establish their first teams and gain valuable game team to gel those understandings and partnerships and play as a unit. A very strange world that we are currently living in and having effects on the game.
To win is not as important as playing with style!
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick
Problems with discipline occur when we’re under pressure. Our yellow card numbers aren’t great (see below). It shows how good the effort was in Bayonne after 3 cards. We need to keep 15 men on the field to have a chance and errors that put us in vulnerable positions don’t help.
Gloucester - 1Y (Green)
Irish - 1Y (Van Wyk)
Exeter - 1Y (Simmons)
Brive - 0
Bayonne - 3Y (Brink, LadyG, Heyes)
Bath - 1Y (Wiese)
Sale - 2Y (LadyG, Wells)
Gloucester - 1Y (Green)
Irish - 1Y (Van Wyk)
Exeter - 1Y (Simmons)
Brive - 0
Bayonne - 3Y (Brink, LadyG, Heyes)
Bath - 1Y (Wiese)
Sale - 2Y (LadyG, Wells)
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick
Some of the cards have been ridiculous mind you. Ref against Bayonne didn’t have a clue and Simmons getting a yellow against Exeter was fair enough but they should have had a red for that illegal clear out on Simmons head. Sale game once again I felt almost our first infringements ended up with a yellow despite no warning first and sale repeatedly infringed in the first half but didn’t even get a warning.westwinds31 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:31 pm Problems with discipline occur when we’re under pressure. Our yellow card numbers aren’t great (see below). It shows how good the effort was in Bayonne after 3 cards. We need to keep 15 men on the field to have a chance and errors that put us in vulnerable positions don’t help.
Gloucester - 1Y (Green)
Irish - 1Y (Van Wyk)
Exeter - 1Y (Simmons)
Brive - 0
Bayonne - 3Y (Brink, LadyG, Heyes)
Bath - 1Y (Wiese)
Sale - 2Y (LadyG, Wells)
I agree with you however that we need to sort this out but I just wonder why we always seem to be on the receiving end when other sides get more luck (like the Exeter game where nobody showed any interest in the potential red card whereas against us the TMO is only too ready to jump in first chance he gets).
Perhaps we need to be smarter, perhaps we need to play the referee better but certainly we need to improve this statistic you are right.
Oakham lad born and bred, Tigers season ticket holder who is enjoying steady progression back towards the good old days!
Re: Progress Under Borthwick
I think fellow posters have raised valid points, yes we have had uninterrupted training since the Bath game but you're not going to develop these combinations without a run of games against opponents. For me there was nothing in the Sale game to suggest any signs of regression just a combination of bad luck, poor halfback play, lack of variation and too much panicking (by Borthers as well making those changes too early).
With Covid it's hard to predict table finishes but one would hope the worst of the disruption is behind us.
With Covid it's hard to predict table finishes but one would hope the worst of the disruption is behind us.
Formerly of Burbaaage (not Inkleh), now up north at uni