Borthwick

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ay2oh
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Re: Borthwick

Post by ay2oh »

Ian Cant wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:53 pm Healy was an outstanding player and one who we could do with today. I watched him win many important games for us, including Stade in Paris.
The time he stormed up and down the Welford Road touchline was in the later stages of Bob Dwyers’ time at Tigers when sadly Dwyer had lost the players due to some reported over zealous criticism and strange selections.
Delano handled Oz brilliantly.
Oz was also a top bloke with kids when he helped at tournaments.
As for recent time Austin has made it known how “ it pains me to see my club struggling.”
Agree that he has a massive chip on his shoulder. He could have got himself a position as an analyst somewhere but his constant quips and joking around has probably put people off.
He was a good player but his comments about tigers whenever they are playing means hat you cannot take any of his comments seriously.
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Tiglon »

His main point seems to be that Borthwick's intensity works at international level but not at club level. That makes no sense, most of his players are internationals and the rest would probably like to be.

I'd take Borthwick's experience and methods over Healey's every time. The lack of intensity is exactly why we are where we are now. This is elite sport, not a casual kick about in the park with your mates, you need to take it seriously and give it absolutely everything every single time you turn up for training. I'm sure the likes of Ford and Tom Youngs will thrive in the new environment.
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club »

I can see where Oz is coming from, at International Level you get the players for a short period of time, at club level, you have them day in day out, the intense focus is important but if you do that all the time you will get burn out & people switch off, you need some carrot with the stick.
The last thing we need is to play like robots, that's part of the problem with us as an attacking entity & has been for some considerable time, apart from the odd glimpse when Mauger was here as coach or Toomua was playing 10.
To win is not as important as playing with style!
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Tiglon »

If you have the right people, intensity is the carrot. You can see from Tom Youngs' performances pre and post Borthwick's arrival how the right people react to that intensity. Watch George Ford's expressions throughout a match - he is nothing but intensity and I doubt he's much different on the training ground.

There's a time and a place for having a laugh, but top sports people are the type who wake up every morning and think of little more than what they can do today to be better - sure, there are a few examples of ridiculously talented people who don't need to be like that, but they are few and far between. I suspect that a relaxed training atmosphere is the culprit for failing to get the best out of so many of the really good players we've signed in the past few years.

Don't forget, these players aren't "at work" and training for 12+ hours a day, 5 days a week. They get looked after very well and there is plenty of opportunity for them to take it easy before or after training if that's what they want to do. Absolute intensity for a few hours a day shouldn;t be too much to ask for or expect, not when the potential rewards are so great.

If I was Borthwick I'd take the "robot" comment as a compliment, it's that relentless personality that has lead him to such huge success in his career, and it makes him an excellent role model for Tigers' players.
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Re: Borthwick

Post by JP14 »

Tiglon wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:03 am If you have the right people, intensity is the carrot. You can see from Tom Youngs' performances pre and post Borthwick's arrival how the right people react to that intensity. Watch George Ford's expressions throughout a match - he is nothing but intensity and I doubt he's much different on the training ground.

There's a time and a place for having a laugh, but top sports people are the type who wake up every morning and think of little more than what they can do today to be better - sure, there are a few examples of ridiculously talented people who don't need to be like that, but they are few and far between. I suspect that a relaxed training atmosphere is the culprit for failing to get the best out of so many of the really good players we've signed in the past few years.

Don't forget, these players aren't "at work" and training for 12+ hours a day, 5 days a week. They get looked after very well and there is plenty of opportunity for them to take it easy before or after training if that's what they want to do. Absolute intensity for a few hours a day shouldn;t be too much to ask for or expect, not when the potential rewards are so great.

If I was Borthwick I'd take the "robot" comment as a compliment, it's that relentless personality that has lead him to such huge success in his career, and it makes him an excellent role model for Tigers' players.
I agree, players not wanting to train as hard so much is one of the reasons we're in the mess!
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sam16111986
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Re: Borthwick

Post by sam16111986 »

Tiglon wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:03 am If
Don't forget, these players aren't "at work" and training for 12+ hours a day, 5 days a week. They get looked after very well and there is plenty of opportunity for them to take it easy before or after training if that's what they want to do. Absolute intensity for a few hours a day shouldn;t be too much to ask for or expect, not when the potential rewards are so great.
Isn't that the Pep training style that has become very popular with most forward thinking football coaches. Shorter, high intensity training sessions that challenge the players physically and mentally.

I'd imagine that rugby is going the same way. Do less contact training but when you do it, it is absolutely full blast.
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club »

I am a Klopp man myself.
To win is not as important as playing with style!
Redstripeman
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Redstripeman »

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:38 am I am a Klopp man myself.
...wash your mouth out!!!
Dokie
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Dokie »

Tiglon wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:03 am If you have the right people, intensity is the carrot. You can see from Tom Youngs' performances pre and post Borthwick's arrival how the right people react to that intensity. Watch George Ford's expressions throughout a match - he is nothing but intensity and I doubt he's much different on the training ground.

There's a time and a place for having a laugh, but top sports people are the type who wake up every morning and think of little more than what they can do today to be better - sure, there are a few examples of ridiculously talented people who don't need to be like that, but they are few and far between. I suspect that a relaxed training atmosphere is the culprit for failing to get the best out of so many of the really good players we've signed in the past few years.

Don't forget, these players aren't "at work" and training for 12+ hours a day, 5 days a week. They get looked after very well and there is plenty of opportunity for them to take it easy before or after training if that's what they want to do. Absolute intensity for a few hours a day shouldn;t be too much to ask for or expect, not when the potential rewards are so great.

If I was Borthwick I'd take the "robot" comment as a compliment, it's that relentless personality that has lead him to such huge success in his career, and it makes him an excellent role model for Tigers' players.
I’m afraid you’ve missed Wayne’s really important points. You can’t beast the players day in day out for a season. You have to have a balanced timetable that manages the workload to keep them fresh and fit to play. If too many sessions are of too high an intensity, it will result in injuries and also fatigue that players will carry into the weekend when they most need to produce that intensity. Imagine the fallout on this forum if the players appear lethargic on match days!
The comparison with Guardiola doesn’t work, simply because there’s no relation between the collisions and physicality of rugby (and the recovery time needed) to what happens on a football pitch.
Let’s not lose sight that we are talking about people, not machines.
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Tiglon »

Dokie wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:10 pm
Tiglon wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:03 am If you have the right people, intensity is the carrot. You can see from Tom Youngs' performances pre and post Borthwick's arrival how the right people react to that intensity. Watch George Ford's expressions throughout a match - he is nothing but intensity and I doubt he's much different on the training ground.

There's a time and a place for having a laugh, but top sports people are the type who wake up every morning and think of little more than what they can do today to be better - sure, there are a few examples of ridiculously talented people who don't need to be like that, but they are few and far between. I suspect that a relaxed training atmosphere is the culprit for failing to get the best out of so many of the really good players we've signed in the past few years.

Don't forget, these players aren't "at work" and training for 12+ hours a day, 5 days a week. They get looked after very well and there is plenty of opportunity for them to take it easy before or after training if that's what they want to do. Absolute intensity for a few hours a day shouldn;t be too much to ask for or expect, not when the potential rewards are so great.

If I was Borthwick I'd take the "robot" comment as a compliment, it's that relentless personality that has lead him to such huge success in his career, and it makes him an excellent role model for Tigers' players.
I’m afraid you’ve missed Wayne’s really important points. You can’t beast the players day in day out for a season. You have to have a balanced timetable that manages the workload to keep them fresh and fit to play. If too many sessions are of too high an intensity, it will result in injuries and also fatigue that players will carry into the weekend when they most need to produce that intensity. Imagine the fallout on this forum if the players appear lethargic on match days!
The comparison with Guardiola doesn’t work, simply because there’s no relation between the collisions and physicality of rugby (and the recovery time needed) to what happens on a football pitch.
Let’s not lose sight that we are talking about people, not machines.
Guardiola wasn't my comparison, I don't know anything about how he works.

I'm afraid you've completely misinterpreted what I mean by "intensity". I'm not talking about "beasting" players, or necessarily physical intensity at all. I'm talking about mental intensity, unwavering focus. Intensity isn't only possible in full contact situations and it isn;t all about hitting each other as hard as possible, you can have intensity in fitness work, handling drills, even team briefings.

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has witnessed Borthwick's training sessions.
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Old Hob »

So, Borthwick has a method, a regime he likes to use at international level. As many have pointed out, he has not been solely responsible for a club. Healey's assumption is that the man is incapable of adapting or changing because of his changed circumstances. It is entirely possible Mr Borthwick may have given his new job some thought.
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strawclearer
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Re: Borthwick

Post by strawclearer »

Aled Walters' job is to have the players at peak physical condition when they're selected. If Borthwick's 'intensity' gets in the way of that, I'm sure Walters will 'have words'.
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Smudge »

Human nature being what it is, I have no doubt Austin's comments will be just the "gee-up" Borthwick needs.
An equal and opposite reaction from him on the field is the best retort.
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Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Jimmy Skitz »

Austin's comments were benign anyway all he really said was he won't be able to coach the same way at club level as with England, which for anyone that thinks about it for 30 seconds is a "no Sherlock" kind of point
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club »

Jimmy Skitz wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:19 pm Austin's comments were benign anyway all he really said was he won't be able to coach the same way at club level as with England, which for anyone that thinks about it for 30 seconds is a "no Sherlock" kind of point
That is true, but does our HC know that? That is yet to be proved.
To win is not as important as playing with style!
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