Tiglon wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:44 pm
You can spin the Bath front five either way - McNally is a 29 year old in his first Premiership season, if Tigers signed him you wouldn't be able to move for all the "why have we signed another mediocre journeyman?" comments. Only Ewels and Stuart have caps. No, not a pushover, no one has said they should have been - but ours definitely shouldn't have been either and yet they were for much of the match.
Boyce is capped.
McNally second season also pretty sure people wanted him when he was briefly linked to us.
Apologies, was not aware Boyce got a cap. I'm sure McNally was at Irish in the Championship last season, but happy to be corrected.
As you say, not a pushover, but I'm surprised that you wouldn't expect our front 5 today to be competitive against them
BFG wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:17 pm
Full honesty mode. Some players may be rusty but I expected a bit more from the starting forwards.
Wallace and Leatigaga looked like two starters able to compete at this level.
Can't judge backs on that struggle, some may also be rusty.
I haven't seen Lavanini have what I'd consider a good game yet but accept that he has come from afar into a struggling side in a new country which can't be easy all round.
This is the only major concern for me about today. Bath's front five are nothing special, but they dominated ours for a good 20-30 minutes in the first half and that was a big factor in the scoreline.
Yes I thought that Bath were able to recycle with ease for long periods in that first half.
Bath were in control.
Leicester's tackling wasn't strong enough.
Wallace seemed to recognise this and had the occasional dabble but was never really able to pick his moments.
CrumblingTerrace wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:28 pm
You need a microscope to spot the improvement from the pre-lockdown dross we served up.
I'm mentally preparing myself for a relegation scrap with Falcons next season.
I would say that today our 2nd/3rd team (with a few exceptions already mentioned) played as well as our first team have on occasions over the last few years.
It’s brutal at the top level. 21 points conceded through silly penalties given away and 5m driving mauls can’t be stopped. Smith and Lavanini giving pens away. Then there’s Matavesi vs a second row in midfield.....try. Then there’s 3 poor tackles to let McConnachie in....28 points. These are tries that were avoidable....not necessarily good Bath play. Yes they ran hard but I thought Roko and Watson were quiet. Some good signs today. Never like losing especially to that lot.
Forty six asked us to think about Manchester United!
Until just after Christmas United were well off the pace but the club kept faith in their young squad! They then overturned a huge points deficit and goal difference compared to City to get into the top four!
Tigers won’t get into the top four but, with game time, longer together as a whole squad the team will improve.
I hate losing and I’m sure Borthwick and his coaches will make Tigers a force to be reckoned with.
Ian Cant wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:05 pm
Forty six asked us to think about Manchester United!
Until just after Christmas United were well off the pace but the club kept faith in their young squad! They then overturned a huge points deficit and goal difference compared to City to get into the top four!
Tigers won’t get into the top four but, with game time, longer together as a whole squad the team will improve.
I hate losing and I’m sure Borthwick and his coaches will make Tigers a force to be reckoned with.
yet lets ignore them spending heavily on a world class player who pretty much single handedly changed their season in January
1. Great opportunity for SB to take a look at more of the squad in the crucible that really counts. This is the time to sacrifice the short term for long term growth.
2. The youngsters got experience of the reality of the Prem. Some have shown the potential to thrive, some have blown there lines. Most will be better for it and learn from it.
3. Gave the opportunity for arguable the second tier of signings from outside the Prem to blow the cobwebs out. I thought Zack Henry was the surprise of the bunch, particularly when he moved to 10 - a real rough diamond. Just needs GF to take him under his wing.
4. They didn’t give up. They came out fighting and got steamrolled by a bunch of international players in a very good first XV Bath Team. But there heads didn’t drop and they fought to the end.
5. It’s clear what has been worked on. Two games on the trot our line out has been good. And two games on the trot where we have energy at the end showing our strength and conditioning is improving.
6. People are forgetting that mismatches like this are inevitable with compressed match timetables and welfare rules. Bath targeted this game for points like we are probably targeting LI.
My only two disappointments were:
1. I hate losing to Baaaarth....
2. Actually, I really really really hate losing to Baaaarth......
Finally, even with arguably a second or even third XV we still played better than most games last season!
This is not intended to be a criticism. It's a genuine query. A player cannot captain England U20's and Tigers (even if it was an under strengthened Tigers) without being a talented player. And it's clear that people with far more knowledge of the game than me really rate him. But, what is it that makes Ben White an exceptional scrum half. I know it is my fault that I don't see it. But I don't. So what exactly am I missing? His running game? Is that exceptional? The quality / speed of his pass? Really? His kicking game being top class? I don't see it. I'm lost.
1. Great opportunity for SB to take a look at more of the squad in the crucible that really counts. This is the time to sacrifice the short term for long term growth.
2. The youngsters got experience of the reality of the Prem. Some have shown the potential to thrive, some have blown there lines. Most will be better for it and learn from it.
3. Gave the opportunity for arguable the second tier of signings from outside the Prem to blow the cobwebs out. I thought Zack Henry was the surprise of the bunch, particularly when he moved to 10 - a real rough diamond. Just needs GF to take him under his wing.
4. They didn’t give up. They came out fighting and got steamrolled by a bunch of international players in a very good first XV Bath Team. But there heads didn’t drop and they fought to the end.
5. It’s clear what has been worked on. Two games on the trot our line out has been good. And two games on the trot where we have energy at the end showing our strength and conditioning is improving.
6. People are forgetting that mismatches like this are inevitable with compressed match timetables and welfare rules. Bath targeted this game for points like we are probably targeting LI.
My only two disappointments were:
1. I hate losing to Baaaarth....
2. Actually, I really really really hate losing to Baaaarth......
Finally, even with arguably a second or even third XV we still played better than most games last season!
Fully agree, while a hugely painful result, the experience gained for our youngsters, will bode well if/when they are needed moving forward.
Also for any youngster coming through, they will see as club that we are prepared to invest in their talent and give them an opportunity to play. When supplemented with a thoughtful recruitment strategy, rather than the constant churn of journeymen, we will lay the foundation for a better future, but it won’t happen overnight.
Traveller wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:03 am
This is not intended to be a criticism. It's a genuine query. A player cannot captain England U20's and Tigers (even if it was an under strengthened Tigers) without being a talented player. And it's clear that people with far more knowledge of the game than me really rate him. But, what is it that makes Ben White an exceptional scrum half. I know it is my fault that I don't see it. But I don't. So what exactly am I missing? His running game? Is that exceptional? The quality / speed of his pass? Really? His kicking game being top class? I don't see it. I'm lost.
He's more of a George Gregan than an Aaron Smith, not especially flashy but tough and calm and very clever with his game management when he gets a chance. For a sub 90kg little fella he's put in some absolutely crunching tackles and very rarely makes the glaring mistakes you see from a lot of young scrummies under pressure. Worth remembering that for most of the games he's started the team around him has been getting bullied off the ball and failing to break the line going forward, IMO under those conditions he's done a fantastic job most of the time. He does really need to improve his kicking if he's going to push on but all in all he's got the potential to go places. If we can keep hold of both him and Simmons we'll be well set for many years to come.
Traveller wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:03 am
This is not intended to be a criticism. It's a genuine query. A player cannot captain England U20's and Tigers (even if it was an under strengthened Tigers) without being a talented player. And it's clear that people with far more knowledge of the game than me really rate him. But, what is it that makes Ben White an exceptional scrum half. I know it is my fault that I don't see it. But I don't. So what exactly am I missing? His running game? Is that exceptional? The quality / speed of his pass? Really? His kicking game being top class? I don't see it. I'm lost.
He's more of a George Gregan than an Aaron Smith, not especially flashy but tough and calm and very clever with his game management when he gets a chance. For a sub 90kg little fella he's put in some absolutely crunching tackles and very rarely makes the glaring mistakes you see from a lot of young scrummies under pressure. Worth remembering that for most of the games he's started the team around him has been getting bullied off the ball and failing to break the line going forward, IMO under those conditions he's done a fantastic job most of the time. He does really need to improve his kicking if he's going to push on but all in all he's got the potential to go places. If we can keep hold of both him and Simmons we'll be well set for many years to come.
Thanks for this. As I said it was a genuine question, and your reference to Gregan sort of emphasises my confusion. When he burst on to the scene he had an electric break and just burn the first defender. So he was a constant threat which gave other players space. Ben Youngs was the same as a sixteen / seventeen year old and only lost the break with his serious injury. However, it was a genuine query - so I am not arguing with your response - which was helpful.
Just my personal opinion about what did we learn from Saturday
1. We do have some promising youngsters
2. We have made some good signings
3. Some players have not lived up to their promise
4. We are making progress as a whole squad
5. We are fitter than last year
This is my justification for the above
1. Ben White is our future No1 scrum half and played well, Jake Kerr is an excellent line out operator but will need to improve his all-round game, George Martin needs time to develop further but again, had a good game and with Tom Smith is one to watch for the future. Freddie Steward should be our 2nd choice full back at the very least - really liked what I saw of him. Yet to be convinced about Joe Hayes or where Harry Simmons should play.
2. Zack Henry is our No 2 F/H and needs to be left there, Harry Potter is a good prospect and I hope will develop into a really good winger but needs time, Guy porter, Blake Enever and Luke Wallace all had steady games and will improve as the season goes on and Lady Gaga will turn out to be our best of this lot.
3 I was really excited by the signing of Lavaninin as our enforcer but, for me, has been a big disappointment - 2 many penalties and not a lot of enforcement. George Worth needs to settle into one position before he beomes a jack of all trades and master of none - utility players are fine if they are really good but don't think he is YET.
4. Last year we would have lost against Exeter by more than 13 and Bath would have put 50 on the board if we had turned out our 2nd team against their 1st. Progress is being made towards the European game and the start of next season. I am looking, just like my son-in-law as this being the longest, most competitive pre-season we have ever had
5. In both games, we have started and finished well and have worked much harder than pre Covid and most importantly, have not given up due to fatigue, in fact not given up at all.
One of my biggest uncertainties is at full back - who is our number 1 choice? Taute? Steward? Worth? Olowofela? Can name our 1st choice in most positions (my opinion) but who really stands out here?
2nd concern is at lock - again not sure who is our best combinations.
On the whole, reasonably pleased and really look forward to seeing who is selected v Irish and getting more of our new signings out on the park.
