Ringfencing almost upon us ?

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GB72
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by GB72 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:27 pm

I am not so concerned about games becoming meaningless later in the season. Ringfencing will be reviewed after 3 years. If clubs are finishing in the bottom few places on each of those years whilst a club or 2 are clearly head and shoulders above the rest of the championship then those clubs are going to be the focus of a discussion for swapping their respective leagues. If this happens every 3 years, poor premiership clubs have time to turn around their fortunes whilst if there are any clubs promoted out of the championship after 3 years, they have a guaranteed period to grow and strengthen at a sustainable rate rather than apply boom or bust spending to try and stay there in only one year.

I can see the benefits of this. I can also see the benefits to attacking rugby in that losses are not the potential disaster they were before and there will be more opportunity to have a go at the top of the table clubs rather than aim at keeping the damage to the points difference as low as possible.

Hot_Charlie
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Hot_Charlie » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:47 pm

JP14 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:15 pm
Ealing's only chance is if Newcastle go under, but does rugby really need another London club in the Prem?
No, probably not, which is why future promotion would be decided by other methods than league position. Almost reaching the “franchise” model but having Quins, LI and Trailfinders within a few miles of each other would struggle to “grow” the game and attract new supporters.

Hence Ealing’s disappointing attendances perhaps. SW London has ample pro rugby already.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by TigerBoy1880 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:15 pm

Hot_Charlie wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:47 pm
JP14 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:15 pm
Ealing's only chance is if Newcastle go under, but does rugby really need another London club in the Prem?
No, probably not, which is why future promotion would be decided by other methods than league position. Almost reaching the “franchise” model but having Quins, LI and Trailfinders within a few miles of each other would struggle to “grow” the game and attract new supporters.

Hence Ealing’s disappointing attendances perhaps. SW London has ample pro rugby already.
Which is wrong. If Ealing were to finish top, being the best team in that league but then just because they’re a London team, the team in 3rd for example went up because they’re a Northern Club is bang out of order.

Hot_Charlie
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Hot_Charlie » Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:00 pm

TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:15 pm
Hot_Charlie wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:47 pm
JP14 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:15 pm
Ealing's only chance is if Newcastle go under, but does rugby really need another London club in the Prem?
No, probably not, which is why future promotion would be decided by other methods than league position. Almost reaching the “franchise” model but having Quins, LI and Trailfinders within a few miles of each other would struggle to “grow” the game and attract new supporters.

Hence Ealing’s disappointing attendances perhaps. SW London has ample pro rugby already.
Which is wrong. If Ealing were to finish top, being the best team in that league but then just because they’re a London team, the team in 3rd for example went up because they’re a Northern Club is bang out of order.
Is it right that Ealing are really only there due to 10s of millions being poured in by a sugar daddy, whilst London Welsh, Leeds, Richmond etc have fallen by the wayside?

The promotion I suspect will be based on numerous factors; playing strength, finances, stadium, infrastructure, community engagement. A whole package to ensure long term sustainability and stability.

And the reality is that a club that has an average gate of less than 1000 (their only home match with an attendance over 800 in 2018/19 was the London Irish derby) is probably going to ring alarm bells.

TigerBoy1880
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by TigerBoy1880 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:57 pm

Hot_Charlie wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:00 pm
TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:15 pm
Hot_Charlie wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:47 pm


No, probably not, which is why future promotion would be decided by other methods than league position. Almost reaching the “franchise” model but having Quins, LI and Trailfinders within a few miles of each other would struggle to “grow” the game and attract new supporters.

Hence Ealing’s disappointing attendances perhaps. SW London has ample pro rugby already.
Which is wrong. If Ealing were to finish top, being the best team in that league but then just because they’re a London team, the team in 3rd for example went up because they’re a Northern Club is bang out of order.
Is it right that Ealing are really only there due to 10s of millions being poured in by a sugar daddy, whilst London Welsh, Leeds, Richmond etc have fallen by the wayside?

The promotion I suspect will be based on numerous factors; playing strength, finances, stadium, infrastructure, community engagement. A whole package to ensure long term sustainability and stability.

And the reality is that a club that has an average gate of less than 1000 (their only home match with an attendance over 800 in 2018/19 was the London Irish derby) is probably going to ring alarm bells.
For me, the reason a team should get promoted is by being the best team. Infrastructure, finances and community engagement etc is completely irrelevant. If they finish top, they deserve a chance in the Premiership.

Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:06 pm

TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:57 pm
Hot_Charlie wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:00 pm
TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:15 pm


Which is wrong. If Ealing were to finish top, being the best team in that league but then just because they’re a London team, the team in 3rd for example went up because they’re a Northern Club is bang out of order.
Is it right that Ealing are really only there due to 10s of millions being poured in by a sugar daddy, whilst London Welsh, Leeds, Richmond etc have fallen by the wayside?

The promotion I suspect will be based on numerous factors; playing strength, finances, stadium, infrastructure, community engagement. A whole package to ensure long term sustainability and stability.

And the reality is that a club that has an average gate of less than 1000 (their only home match with an attendance over 800 in 2018/19 was the London Irish derby) is probably going to ring alarm bells.
For me, the reason a team should get promoted is by being the best team. Infrastructure, finances and community engagement etc is completely irrelevant. If they finish top, they deserve a chance in the Premiership.
So you don’t feel that a club should prove it is able to pay the increased wages required by premiership players, or have access to a ground, which is able to safely accommodate the increase in crowd numbers, with adequate toilet facilities and catering outlets etc.
Interesting :smt017

TigerBoy1880
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by TigerBoy1880 » Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:32 pm

Mark62 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:06 pm
TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:57 pm
Hot_Charlie wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:00 pm


Is it right that Ealing are really only there due to 10s of millions being poured in by a sugar daddy, whilst London Welsh, Leeds, Richmond etc have fallen by the wayside?

The promotion I suspect will be based on numerous factors; playing strength, finances, stadium, infrastructure, community engagement. A whole package to ensure long term sustainability and stability.

And the reality is that a club that has an average gate of less than 1000 (their only home match with an attendance over 800 in 2018/19 was the London Irish derby) is probably going to ring alarm bells.
For me, the reason a team should get promoted is by being the best team. Infrastructure, finances and community engagement etc is completely irrelevant. If they finish top, they deserve a chance in the Premiership.
So you don’t feel that a club should prove it is able to pay the increased wages required by premiership players, or have access to a ground, which is able to safely accommodate the increase in crowd numbers, with adequate toilet facilities and catering outlets etc.
Interesting :smt017
If the team on the pitch plays well enough to be the best team in the Championship then yes, they deserve to be in the Premiership. They can still pay players what they can afford and not pay “increased wages”. I’m sure they’ll have 30 plus players giving everything to play at Premiership level. If the ground only holds 1000 people then they’ll cope with the “increased crowd numbers” and this will be the same for catering.

h's dad
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by h's dad » Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:49 am

TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:32 pm
Mark62 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:06 pm
TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:57 pm


For me, the reason a team should get promoted is by being the best team. Infrastructure, finances and community engagement etc is completely irrelevant. If they finish top, they deserve a chance in the Premiership.
So you don’t feel that a club should prove it is able to pay the increased wages required by premiership players, or have access to a ground, which is able to safely accommodate the increase in crowd numbers, with adequate toilet facilities and catering outlets etc.
Interesting :smt017
If the team on the pitch plays well enough to be the best team in the Championship then yes, they deserve to be in the Premiership. They can still pay players what they can afford and not pay “increased wages”. I’m sure they’ll have 30 plus players giving everything to play at Premiership level. If the ground only holds 1000 people then they’ll cope with the “increased crowd numbers” and this will be the same for catering.
Following the same financial model in the Premiership that worked in the Championship would likely see the club go straight back down after a chastening season. Having said that, a club and players that have earned promotion deserve a shot and also the promoted club will get more funding in the Premiership from all sorts of sources - how much I don't know and possibly less than the parachute payment paid to relegated clubs which would strike me as somewhat unfair to a lot of clubs if this is the case. Anybody know more about this?
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

GETHIN EXILE
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by GETHIN EXILE » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:29 pm

Does anyone else think it's time to end "parachute" payments? surely they give the relegated team an unfair advantage by enabling them to keep a much stronger and probably larger squad than the teams around them in the championship.

h's dad
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by h's dad » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:49 pm

GETHIN EXILE wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:29 pm
Does anyone else think it's time to end "parachute" payments? surely they give the relegated team an unfair advantage by enabling them to keep a much stronger and probably larger squad than the teams around them in the championship.
I think the parachute payment comes from all of the Premiership teams chipping in, I believe, an equal amount. A mutual insurance policy in effect. You can understand the justification of protecting the relegated club and its players from an abrupt, if possibly unsurprising, loss of income. It is equally apparent that it gives the relegated club an unfair advantage over its new opponents.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

GETHIN EXILE
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by GETHIN EXILE » Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:32 pm

Hopefully all the other clubs will tell Saracens they're not getting the payment this time lol

TigerBoy1880
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by TigerBoy1880 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:16 am

h's dad wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:49 am
TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:32 pm
Mark62 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:06 pm


So you don’t feel that a club should prove it is able to pay the increased wages required by premiership players, or have access to a ground, which is able to safely accommodate the increase in crowd numbers, with adequate toilet facilities and catering outlets etc.
Interesting :smt017
If the team on the pitch plays well enough to be the best team in the Championship then yes, they deserve to be in the Premiership. They can still pay players what they can afford and not pay “increased wages”. I’m sure they’ll have 30 plus players giving everything to play at Premiership level. If the ground only holds 1000 people then they’ll cope with the “increased crowd numbers” and this will be the same for catering.
Following the same financial model in the Premiership that worked in the Championship would likely see the club go straight back down after a chastening season. Having said that, a club and players that have earned promotion deserve a shot and also the promoted club will get more funding in the Premiership from all sorts of sources - how much I don't know and possibly less than the parachute payment paid to relegated clubs which would strike me as somewhat unfair to a lot of clubs if this is the case. Anybody know more about this?
Yes there’s a very good chance they’d go down but they’d still have deserved to and would have earned their chance to spend at least one season in the Premiership.

chipnchase
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by chipnchase » Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:20 pm

TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:15 pm
Hot_Charlie wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:47 pm
JP14 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:15 pm
Ealing's only chance is if Newcastle go under, but does rugby really need another London club in the Prem?
No, probably not, which is why future promotion would be decided by other methods than league position. Almost reaching the “franchise” model but having Quins, LI and Trailfinders within a few miles of each other would struggle to “grow” the game and attract new supporters.

Hence Ealing’s disappointing attendances perhaps. SW London has ample pro rugby already.
Which is wrong. If Ealing were to finish top, being the best team in that league but then just because they’re a London team, the team in 3rd for example went up because they’re a Northern Club is bang out of order.
Why is it? We are obsessed with relation and promotion in this country. The fact is the game is now a business, if you don't have a market share to go at what are you actually adding.

The best benefit of this year (unofficial) ring fencing has been the amount of young talent being allowed game time too develop. Does anyone really think George Martin would have got 80 minutes on Saturday topping the Prem stats list for tackles and line out wins if we were in a relegation scrap?

TigerBoy1880
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by TigerBoy1880 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:15 am

chipnchase wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:20 pm
TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:15 pm
Hot_Charlie wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:47 pm


No, probably not, which is why future promotion would be decided by other methods than league position. Almost reaching the “franchise” model but having Quins, LI and Trailfinders within a few miles of each other would struggle to “grow” the game and attract new supporters.

Hence Ealing’s disappointing attendances perhaps. SW London has ample pro rugby already.
Which is wrong. If Ealing were to finish top, being the best team in that league but then just because they’re a London team, the team in 3rd for example went up because they’re a Northern Club is bang out of order.
Why is it? We are obsessed with relation and promotion in this country. The fact is the game is now a business, if you don't have a market share to go at what are you actually adding.

The best benefit of this year (unofficial) ring fencing has been the amount of young talent being allowed game time too develop. Does anyone really think George Martin would have got 80 minutes on Saturday topping the Prem stats list for tackles and line out wins if we were in a relegation scrap?
The standard of rugby has been worse though. Many said it would be better if ring fencing was introduced.

Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Jimmy Skitz » Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:52 pm

TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:15 am
chipnchase wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:20 pm
TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:15 pm


Which is wrong. If Ealing were to finish top, being the best team in that league but then just because they’re a London team, the team in 3rd for example went up because they’re a Northern Club is bang out of order.
Why is it? We are obsessed with relation and promotion in this country. The fact is the game is now a business, if you don't have a market share to go at what are you actually adding.

The best benefit of this year (unofficial) ring fencing has been the amount of young talent being allowed game time too develop. Does anyone really think George Martin would have got 80 minutes on Saturday topping the Prem stats list for tackles and line out wins if we were in a relegation scrap?
The standard of rugby has been worse though. Many said it would be better if ring fencing was introduced.
ring fencing wit ha normal schedule not 3 games in a week would allow for youngsters and give teams the freedom to play a more attacking expansive game

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