TA30 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:48 am
Looking at who has stayed, extended and confirmed gone there is an argument that the club has used covid as an opportunity to accelerate the departure of these five players and I strongly suspect that is why there has been reported discontent - rather than the cuts to salary itself. Using Covid as the reason to discuss contracts Jan, GM and SB have effectively reshaped the squad a year ahead of where they expected to be as all 5 of these players were coming into their last year, I think.
As with Jonny May, they have cut out large wages in the backline through Veianu and Manu leaving who for varying reasons all can be argued to not have provided value for money. Harsh in my opinion, but the debate has been had on these forums.
Bateman, Reid, Eastmond have likely all paid the price for their age & squad profile, with the club taking the view that they are not in their long-term plans (so no extension offer maybe?) with alternatives in the academy or better quality external replacements. This is consistent with departures of kalamafoni, Tatafu, Spencer, Thompson, Holmes and age of their identified replacements.
This is all conjecture on my part but it would not surprise me if a calculated approach by the club is why those 5 are unhappy and why the rest of the squad has bought into it with some hefty extensions to key players.
If this is the case and the process has been more managed than it appeared initially then the club should be announcing some players to replace them shortly - especially in the centres! Chris Egerton has now mentioned Matias Orlandi a couple of times...
I strongly expect the balance sheets to show why we’ve had to do this. And the non-existence of other clubs a year or two from now will also re-enforce the need to be ruthless.
Players have lost their worth overnight. Some appreciate whatever they can get in these circumstances, others still believe the value hasn’t dropped. Even Japan is going to run out of yen In the bank - potentially quite soon if the financial world continues to implode...
We don't even know what the Tigers game plan will be and people already saying that he wouldn't fit in.
Even as a winger Veainu would have played for Tigers of old, Varndell did.
So with Rod Taylor at training is that now all the new people have arrived and are settled?
Excited to see what "Rod" can do pretty unknown in these parts but very interesting CV.
TA30 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:48 am
Looking at who has stayed, extended and confirmed gone there is an argument that the club has used covid as an opportunity to accelerate the departure of these five players and I strongly suspect that is why there has been reported discontent - rather than the cuts to salary itself. Using Covid as the reason to discuss contracts Jan, GM and SB have effectively reshaped the squad a year ahead of where they expected to be as all 5 of these players were coming into their last year, I think.
As with Jonny May, they have cut out large wages in the backline through Veianu and Manu leaving who for varying reasons all can be argued to not have provided value for money. Harsh in my opinion, but the debate has been had on these forums.
Bateman, Reid, Eastmond have likely all paid the price for their age & squad profile, with the club taking the view that they are not in their long-term plans (so no extension offer maybe?) with alternatives in the academy or better quality external replacements. This is consistent with departures of kalamafoni, Tatafu, Spencer, Thompson, Holmes and age of their identified replacements.
This is all conjecture on my part but it would not surprise me if a calculated approach by the club is why those 5 are unhappy and why the rest of the squad has bought into it with some hefty extensions to key players.
If this is the case and the process has been more managed than it appeared initially then the club should be announcing some players to replace them shortly - especially in the centres! Chris Egerton has now mentioned Matias Orlandi a couple of times...
No different to any other walk of life. If they were out of contract there is no onus on the club to re-sign if they think they are not good enough. As far as I am aware ALL players were offered the same 25% pay cut
TA30 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:48 am
Looking at who has stayed, extended and confirmed gone there is an argument that the club has used covid as an opportunity to accelerate the departure of these five players and I strongly suspect that is why there has been reported discontent - rather than the cuts to salary itself. Using Covid as the reason to discuss contracts Jan, GM and SB have effectively reshaped the squad a year ahead of where they expected to be as all 5 of these players were coming into their last year, I think.
As with Jonny May, they have cut out large wages in the backline through Veianu and Manu leaving who for varying reasons all can be argued to not have provided value for money. Harsh in my opinion, but the debate has been had on these forums.
Bateman, Reid, Eastmond have likely all paid the price for their age & squad profile, with the club taking the view that they are not in their long-term plans (so no extension offer maybe?) with alternatives in the academy or better quality external replacements. This is consistent with departures of kalamafoni, Tatafu, Spencer, Thompson, Holmes and age of their identified replacements.
This is all conjecture on my part but it would not surprise me if a calculated approach by the club is why those 5 are unhappy and why the rest of the squad has bought into it with some hefty extensions to key players.
If this is the case and the process has been more managed than it appeared initially then the club should be announcing some players to replace them shortly - especially in the centres! Chris Egerton has now mentioned Matias Orlandi a couple of times...
I strongly expect the balance sheets to show why we’ve had to do this. And the non-existence of other clubs a year or two from now will also re-enforce the need to be ruthless.
Players have lost their worth overnight. Some appreciate whatever they can get in these circumstances, others still believe the value hasn’t dropped. Even Japan is going to run out of yen In the bank - potentially quite soon if the financial world continues to implode...
It's an excellent point and you make it with more clarity than the people responsible for leading the game. Players are no longer as valuable as they were. Things might improve over the next three - five years, but in the short term that's the reality.
TA30 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:48 am
Looking at who has stayed, extended and confirmed gone there is an argument that the club has used covid as an opportunity to accelerate the departure of these five players and I strongly suspect that is why there has been reported discontent - rather than the cuts to salary itself. Using Covid as the reason to discuss contracts Jan, GM and SB have effectively reshaped the squad a year ahead of where they expected to be as all 5 of these players were coming into their last year, I think.
As with Jonny May, they have cut out large wages in the backline through Veianu and Manu leaving who for varying reasons all can be argued to not have provided value for money. Harsh in my opinion, but the debate has been had on these forums.
Bateman, Reid, Eastmond have likely all paid the price for their age & squad profile, with the club taking the view that they are not in their long-term plans (so no extension offer maybe?) with alternatives in the academy or better quality external replacements. This is consistent with departures of kalamafoni, Tatafu, Spencer, Thompson, Holmes and age of their identified replacements.
This is all conjecture on my part but it would not surprise me if a calculated approach by the club is why those 5 are unhappy and why the rest of the squad has bought into it with some hefty extensions to key players.
If this is the case and the process has been more managed than it appeared initially then the club should be announcing some players to replace them shortly - especially in the centres! Chris Egerton has now mentioned Matias Orlandi a couple of times...
No different to any other walk of life. If they were out of contract there is no onus on the club to re-sign if they think they are not good enough. As far as I am aware ALL players were offered the same 25% pay cut
All were offered the 25% reduction with claw back but some had years added to their contracts to offer longer term financial security. That may not have been the case for Bateman, Reid and Eastmond who were therefore less interested in staying.
Manu is a more complex case, he may well go to Japan in the short term where he can earn as much as he did here for a shorter season and then agree a deal to return in the summer of 2021. If he does that early enough he'll be available for the Lions. A season in Japan might add more time to his career as well as adding to his bank balance.
TA30 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:48 am
Looking at who has stayed, extended and confirmed gone there is an argument that the club has used covid as an opportunity to accelerate the departure of these five players and I strongly suspect that is why there has been reported discontent - rather than the cuts to salary itself. Using Covid as the reason to discuss contracts Jan, GM and SB have effectively reshaped the squad a year ahead of where they expected to be as all 5 of these players were coming into their last year, I think.
As with Jonny May, they have cut out large wages in the backline through Veianu and Manu leaving who for varying reasons all can be argued to not have provided value for money. Harsh in my opinion, but the debate has been had on these forums.
Bateman, Reid, Eastmond have likely all paid the price for their age & squad profile, with the club taking the view that they are not in their long-term plans (so no extension offer maybe?) with alternatives in the academy or better quality external replacements. This is consistent with departures of kalamafoni, Tatafu, Spencer, Thompson, Holmes and age of their identified replacements.
This is all conjecture on my part but it would not surprise me if a calculated approach by the club is why those 5 are unhappy and why the rest of the squad has bought into it with some hefty extensions to key players.
If this is the case and the process has been more managed than it appeared initially then the club should be announcing some players to replace them shortly - especially in the centres! Chris Egerton has now mentioned Matias Orlandi a couple of times...
I agree with these sentiments expect Eastmond, Reid, and Bateman would have stayed if given contract extensions.
I’m a big fan of Veainu but he doesn’t really fit in this new (back to the old ways) Tigers culture. So wouldn’t be surprised if he wasn’t offered an extension as well.
Btw think this is the right approach and having a clear game plan and culture is what Tigers have been missing for a long time.
Similar to my sentiments. Going back through the forum the club have done exactly what most of us have said is required to turn the good ship Tigers around. I always thought the important parts were sorting out the Board Level and finances, reaffirming the critical importance of the academy pipeline, and most importantly getting a coaching team hungry for long term success with the ability and experience to match, as get these right and everything else follows. If anything, COVID has given a means to undertake the difficult reforms that may have been unpalatable otherwise and therefore speeded up the changes by at least a season. And from what I read, for the first time in a while we might actually be leading the way when compared to other clubs.
In terms of signings, in hindsight, the most important was Steve Borthwick.
The real test is obviously what now happens on the pitch and when, but all the ingredients (with the exception of the Taufua question and a couple of signings) are in place.
For the first time in 5 years it does not seem like another false dawn. It’s all rather exciting....
Exeter is an interesting one, first thing is there is nothing we can do about it, and also it is going to be a season or 2 before we are challenging for league titles, so as another poster put better there.
Their first choice centres, when fit will be Devoto and Slade, I’m not aware they have much depth outside those 2 except Whitten, so, playing wise he could fit, financially different story. Assuming their marquee is tied up with Richie Grays arrival, the money he will want would have to come from within their budget, which must be already allocated.
If the signing was Manu why are they delaying it for 2 weeks, unless as he is known as Chief, he’s going to be the new mascot.
For me the most sense comes from him going to Japan, and Exeter’s signing being an All Black, as their mini season will be about over by then
Leicestertinytiger wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:09 am
I can’t imagine any club in the premiership having spare cap to bring in Manu, especially Exeter. ...
A lower salary from Exeter and a top up from a contractual claim against Tigers might be enough.
People say this like it’s an easy process. It could take 12-24 months, significant legal costs and there is no guarantee of actually winning. Manu is probably better just moving on and taking a massive packet in France or Japan without the hassle.
As others have pointed out, the players will be on the sort of contacts that can only be terminated by mutual consent (unless Tigers have a cast iron force majeure). The club is unlikely to want to be in court (lose one case, lose all).
The other possibility is it has been quiet while severance deals have been agreed to terminate their employment (which presumably will also have happened for Simon Cohen. Directors contracts are usually framed in the same way. As, apparently, is the one for the current head of the Civil Service). These deals usually have non-disclosure clauses, which allow the organisation to 'control the narrative'. My understanding is any severance payment will count towards this seasons cap.
Any 'gentleman's agreement' ('not worth the paper it isn't written on'!) will not apply to players who are free of contract, so Manu is fair game for a prem side if he wants to stay in the UK.
TA30 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:48 am
Looking at who has stayed, extended and confirmed gone there is an argument that the club has used covid as an opportunity to accelerate the departure of these five players and I strongly suspect that is why there has been reported discontent - rather than the cuts to salary itself. Using Covid as the reason to discuss contracts Jan, GM and SB have effectively reshaped the squad a year ahead of where they expected to be as all 5 of these players were coming into their last year, I think.
As with Jonny May, they have cut out large wages in the backline through Veianu and Manu leaving who for varying reasons all can be argued to not have provided value for money. Harsh in my opinion, but the debate has been had on these forums.
Bateman, Reid, Eastmond have likely all paid the price for their age & squad profile, with the club taking the view that they are not in their long-term plans (so no extension offer maybe?) with alternatives in the academy or better quality external replacements. This is consistent with departures of kalamafoni, Tatafu, Spencer, Thompson, Holmes and age of their identified replacements.
This is all conjecture on my part but it would not surprise me if a calculated approach by the club is why those 5 are unhappy and why the rest of the squad has bought into it with some hefty extensions to key players.
If this is the case and the process has been more managed than it appeared initially then the club should be announcing some players to replace them shortly - especially in the centres! Chris Egerton has now mentioned Matias Orlandi a couple of times...
Tigers won’t be the only organisation to use the pandemic to make changes across the organisation, if it is indeed the case
He's mention Orlandi once.
Just like there is nothing in the De La Fuente rumours other than he's followed a club which will most likely have 3 Argentines playing in it soon enough.
kend wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:28 am
As others have pointed out, the players will be on the sort of contacts that can only be terminated by mutual consent (unless Tigers have a cast iron force majeure). The club is unlikely to want to be in court (lose one case, lose all).
The other possibility is it has been quiet while severance deals have been agreed to terminate their employment (which presumably will also have happened for Simon Cohen. Directors contracts are usually framed in the same way. As, apparently, is the one for the current head of the Civil Service). These deals usually have non-disclosure clauses, which allow the organisation to 'control the narrative'. My understanding is any severance payment will count towards this seasons cap.
Any 'gentleman's agreement' ('not worth the paper it isn't written on'!) will not apply to players who are free of contract, so Manu is fair game for a prem side if he wants to stay in the UK.
Typical players contract don't have force majeure clauses within them. Club would only be able to terminate on grounds of gross misconduct or the player is guilty of a serious breach or material breach of the terms of the agreement. This would normally be mutual aswell as in other legal contracts regarding obligations of either party. I suspect that the player has the right to terminate immeadiately should the Club exercise a right to reduce players salary by a certain amount.
I do think there is something in this.
Tigers perhaps seeing this not as a negative, but as an opportunity to reshape the squad to suit the new coaching setup on an expedited timeline.
We have had a tendency to like a 10/12 hybrid in the 12 channel, Howard, Mauger, Twelvetrees, Reid, but actually our better times were arguably with Gibson, Allen and Hipkiss in midfield, subtle players but with a much more direct strategy.
Scott fits this mould, as does Taute, and also Jones as a 13 capable of playing 12 (if the media is to be believed). Focus on the platform to force the defence to become mismatched. There is probably less need for such high profile wingers if the damage is done in midfield. Just concentrate on them being defensively solid, and be reliable finishers.
RagingBull wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:43 am
He's mention Orlandi once.
Just like there is nothing in the De La Fuente rumours other than he's followed a club which will most likely have 3 Argentines playing in it soon enough.
De La Fuente also follows other clubs on insta like Bordeaux, I would expect the club to be taking a serious look at the Jaguares centres though as they are all currently "available"
Of course... Tigers might be HAVING to cut beyond the need to pay off those contracts. But the long term club interests require it to do so.
A Salary is only part of the player cost. Despite some of them being huge the overall cost considerations mean it’s in the clubs best interests to cancel/breech/mutually agree.
Just hope some of those fringe players have a backup plan. Because any club worth it’s legal salt is going to have conditions in contracts moving forward for this COVID-19 consequence.
