Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

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G.K
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by G.K » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:28 pm

I think those expecting Borthwick to ride into town and sort it all out are somewhat over optimistic. For a start he's a forward and it's our backs and the way the team plays as a whole that are the biggest problems. Not only that but those that got us into this hole will still be around and can anyone explain what the point of having Murphs still around will be anyway?
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by tigerssteve » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:06 pm

Big Dai wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:57 am
tigerssteve wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:03 am
Big Dai wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:35 pm
What does it matter? We'll all be here next year, typing away. Hoping against hope there will be one team worse than us so we can genuinely avoid relegation rather than have salvation gifted by a bunch of talented cheats.

The game I knew has gone. It's so sad that professionalism has brought us to this.
Blimey! Bit late to start blaming professionalism! The game I knew has gone too but not sure professionalism is to blame. Health and safety, though clearly important, has had a bigger impact. I used to love a good rake of a man on the wrong side it's what he deserved for being there but that's gone with so many great aspects of our physical game, none of them to do with professionalism. In my humble opinion.
If not professionalism then the professional era I suppose I meant. The money side of things has a lot to answer for..... Club games when internationals are on, the autumn international schedule, the endless merry go round of players in and out of contract not to mention salary caps etc. Non of this would happen if our physical game, as it was, and I quite like your observations there too, had stayed amateur.

I see your point and have to agree. We are going down the round ball route sadly.

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by tigerssteve » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:07 pm

westwinds31 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:32 am
tigerssteve wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:06 am
manxleigh wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:18 pm
Do we have any backs moves we can execute other than through 3/4 sets of hands then kick it away or get turned over? Loops, wrap arounds - anyone remember them?
Is that something to do with knitting perhaps?
Pass one, carry one ....
Drop one!

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by tigerssteve » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:09 pm

manxleigh wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:25 pm
tigerssteve wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:06 am
manxleigh wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:18 pm
Do we have any backs moves we can execute other than through 3/4 sets of hands then kick it away or get turned over? Loops, wrap arounds - anyone remember them?
Is that something to do with knitting perhaps?
Looks like they have probably spent more time knitting than practising moves and line outs
Perhaps next year's kit will be hand knitted by the wearer! That I would love to see!

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by tigerssteve » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:13 pm

Ian Cant wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:07 pm
Obviously I will be at Welford Road and at Sarries but luckily I couldnt get to Sale last night.
I thought only a few players really seemed to care last night and the only rugby joy last night was Edinburgh’s win as I am a Richard Cockerill fan, always have been.
The worry for all of us is for 2 years under Murphy there has been no back to back performances and he panics instead of backing young talent; last week Hardwick made a couple of errors so is then taken off then not in the squad!
Reid is never going to be a reliable 10 as both his tackling and kicking aren’t Premiership standard. Hardwick can kick, can tackle and if allowed break the line but Murphy just doesn’t develop any players. Last night too, he leaves, with the game lost, TV on who we can ill afford getting injured; TV was still trying to conjure some magic and pride in the last 20 minutes but had no support.
As for Dan Cole: great player but never a captain,as was proved last night.
Sadly I don’t see Borthwick as the “Saviour “ whereas Taufua, when he came, said that his Head coach fancied a crack at The Premiership. A coach with a very good record.
We keep going along to support our beloved team but we all know, commentators know and even the usually optimist Bledwyn Jones has admitted, the passion, tactical nous and skill levels are awful. Borthwick needs a whole team of coaches to rectify all that is wrong.
What options are there?
Build the whole team around Genge, Ford and Taufua. Ford to be captain with Taufua as vice.
Instead of signing lots of well meaning, hard working players, eg, how many hookers have we got but only really play 2, sign very good quality players and if injury crisis happens sign players on loan.
And please, Geordan and Mike Ford, can we get the backs and forwards to run onto the pass not stand still when receiving it!!
Sorry: we could all go on and on!
Ps. Well done Scott Hamilton with his Hinckley team. Really putting together a great run of wins.
I mentioned when Reid was signed that the best thing I read about him was that he was versatile. That means not quite good enough in several positions.

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by sam16111986 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:54 pm

Jimmy Skitz wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:59 pm
sam16111986 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:06 pm
Jimmy Skitz wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:09 pm
I’m not criticising playing a young 9, I like that I’m talking the lack of depth on the bench for back cover our sub backs were another young 9 and a player we sent out on loan as he wasn’t needed!

Hughes could have been on the bench if you wanted to start Olowofela, it’s just not smart use of squad to go in with that balance.

His obsession with size in the back row is not helping either
Why would you want Hughes on the bench? He covers one position. If you were adding anyone else to the bench it would have been Worth as he covers more positions and is good under the high ball.

Get used to a young 9 on the bench it's what we're likely to see until we reach the point where we stop calling White and Simmons young.

Backrow played well. A more "balanced" backrow then we have named previously with three players in their preferred positions. The tendency to out Wells on as a flanker off the bench has had mixed results and it wasn't what I'd have chosen to do given how Reffell was playing last night.
Hughes may only cover one position but he was just an example I had mentioned Worth previously.

I’m happy with the 9s but JVP was having a mare but we were 1 injury away from him having to play the whole game despite struggling
He struggled with his box kick speed but when he got the kicks away they were good. His passing was crisp and he played the conditions well. I was impressed with the tackles he made as well because the Sale forwards did target him and he put his body on the line. He just needs to be more bossy and that will come with experience. I thought he had a better game than Simmons.

Realistically most key players are one injury away from playing the full 80 minutes even if they are struggling.

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by wellstiger » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:43 am

Crofty wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:12 pm
wellstiger wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:33 am
Some one has said it P45's
If I am not up to the role for which I am employed. I either go into remedial training or shown the door.
Why are professional sports persons across all sports treated as "untouchables" We can all have an off day. When the off days become the norm - then something is wrong. At present we are saying its down to coaching - The internationals are away. The ref was poor. Recruitment and retention has been poor. We are awaiting the Saviour SB.

NO NO NO Some one say it as it is - YOU HAVE TO GO - YOUR NOT GOOD ENOUGH. :smt013 :smt013
OK, say you get your wish and we sack all the coaches on Monday, then what? Who runs the sessions on Tuesday at Oval Park in preparation for Worcester? I'm as frustrated as you by the performance we're currently being subjected to and like you I'm sure coaching is a big part of the cause but the next Head Coach has been identified, and is one who many on here wanted, now we can only wait to see what he will do with the playing and the wider coaching staff...
Did I say get rid on Monday? Was that my wish?? - This is has been a decline for 4-5 seasons and persons in all departments have accepted poor performances as the norm.
For all the excuses I have stated. If we had dealt with this at point of origin we wouldn't be scratting at "reasons " for our decline. When SB comes after 6N then you give him the tools sharpened so he can do the job and get rid of the surplace rubbish. How long does he stay?- If a top job looms is he gone? Will player power, as others have hinted at, hinder him?

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by tigerssteve » Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:39 am

wellstiger wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:43 am
Crofty wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:12 pm
wellstiger wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:33 am
Some one has said it P45's
If I am not up to the role for which I am employed. I either go into remedial training or shown the door.
Why are professional sports persons across all sports treated as "untouchables" We can all have an off day. When the off days become the norm - then something is wrong. At present we are saying its down to coaching - The internationals are away. The ref was poor. Recruitment and retention has been poor. We are awaiting the Saviour SB.

NO NO NO Some one say it as it is - YOU HAVE TO GO - YOUR NOT GOOD ENOUGH. :smt013 :smt013
OK, say you get your wish and we sack all the coaches on Monday, then what? Who runs the sessions on Tuesday at Oval Park in preparation for Worcester? I'm as frustrated as you by the performance we're currently being subjected to and like you I'm sure coaching is a big part of the cause but the next Head Coach has been identified, and is one who many on here wanted, now we can only wait to see what he will do with the playing and the wider coaching staff...
Did I say get rid on Monday? Was that my wish?? - This is has been a decline for 4-5 seasons and persons in all departments have accepted poor performances as the norm.
For all the excuses I have stated. If we had dealt with this at point of origin we wouldn't be scratting at "reasons " for our decline. When SB comes after 6N then you give him the tools sharpened so he can do the job and get rid of the surplace rubbish. How long does he stay?- If a top job looms is he gone? Will player power, as others have hinted at, hinder him?
Totally agree. Borthwick must be the boss and if he doesn't like what he sees, he has to have the authority to get rid. No matter who it may be, who he's related to or who he's mates with. Similarly, he must have the authority to recruit, be it Coach or player. My worry is that it won't be that way.

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by G.K » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:00 am

"OK, say you get your wish and we sack all the coaches on Monday, then what? Who runs the sessions on Tuesday at Oval Park in preparation for Worcester?"

Who cares who runs the sessions, it can't get any worse than it already is. As it's now a 'dead season' as Tigers can't get relegated this year due to Saffas (otherwise they surely would have) then now is the ideal time to be rid of Murphs in any capacity above water boy.

As others have said, great player he certainly was and I'm sure he's trying his best and all that but it's obvious that he's just not up to it (nor are the people who appointed him, who should also move on).

I know I keep banging on about this but we got rid of Loffeda and Mauger after short periods in charge despite them achieving more than Murphs ever has (or ever will in my view).
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by ay2oh » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:01 am

tigerssteve wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:39 am
wellstiger wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:43 am
Crofty wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:12 pm


OK, say you get your wish and we sack all the coaches on Monday, then what? Who runs the sessions on Tuesday at Oval Park in preparation for Worcester? I'm as frustrated as you by the performance we're currently being subjected to and like you I'm sure coaching is a big part of the cause but the next Head Coach has been identified, and is one who many on here wanted, now we can only wait to see what he will do with the playing and the wider coaching staff...
Did I say get rid on Monday? Was that my wish?? - This is has been a decline for 4-5 seasons and persons in all departments have accepted poor performances as the norm.
For all the excuses I have stated. If we had dealt with this at point of origin we wouldn't be scratting at "reasons " for our decline. When SB comes after 6N then you give him the tools sharpened so he can do the job and get rid of the surplace rubbish. How long does he stay?- If a top job looms is he gone? Will player power, as others have hinted at, hinder him?
Totally agree. Borthwick must be the boss and if he doesn't like what he sees, he has to have the authority to get rid. No matter who it may be, who he's related to or who he's mates with. Similarly, he must have the authority to recruit, be it Coach or player. My worry is that it won't be that way.
Let’s give Borthwick some credit. Before he agreed to take the job he would have set certain conditions regarding team selection, his other coaches and recruitment as he will not want to be seen to fail as this would hamper is future ambitions :smt016
A2O

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:04 am

I think Borthwick has an awful lot to prove, let's not forget his England forwards got steam rollered in the RWC final, France did a job on them as well.
Yes he needs to be given a free hand, (I personally think he will) but he is a long way from a finished article head coach.
Once the AB's made there decision perhaps we should of thought again unless Borthwick was a done deal already.
If he does nothing else apart from give us a functioning line out & sort out the over inflated player power, he will of done a half decent job.
To win is not as important as playing with style!

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by Leicestertinytiger » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:13 am

Borthwick isn’t going to fix that the backs have been awful for the last two seasons. No attacking structure, the players look lost after a few phases. When the internationals are away it becomes more than apparent we’re relying on individuals rather than a system. At this stage would literally take any attack coach from any of the other premiership clubs, even London Irish or Worcester.

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by johnthegriff » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:12 am

i was at Sale and we were well beaten by the better team. Marginal decisions by the ref seemed to go against Tigers but that was not why we lost, we on the night were just not good enough. It is true that we had five players, a third of our team with England, Sale had just one and replaced him with an England quality back rower on loan from Newcastle and that all made a difference. Injury during the match to Taute seemed to change things with Reid who had been doing ok moving to centre where he was less effective but mainly it was our forwards that got beat. Weather conditions were horrible but that applied to both teams and it was Sale who handled the conditions better with kicks and catching.
I do not believe this team will finish 11th in the Premiership, I have seen enough to think we will beat enough teams to climb higher than our current position. Recruitment for this season of starting quality players was actually ok and the support players plus development guys improvement gives us a better squad than last year we just have to prove it on the pitch.
Since the sacking of Cocker which I will always believe was a mistake life for our team has been difficult, prior to Cocker going I believe some recruitment/retention was not wholly as he would have preferred. Matt O Connor came in and changed things that hastened decline, Geordan took over a squad that simply was not good enough and certainly was not able to cope with international call-up and injury, he was not helped by Toomua, a marquee player just not wanting to be here and trying to divide his time between Tigers and getting back into the Australian World Cup team.
We had a pre-season if you can call it that with no practice games a about a dozen of our first team were with their national sides preparing for or in Japan. We made a bad start, we should have won at Worcester even with the team we put out, we beat Gloucester, should have done better at Irish and were very poor against Saints, yet there have been times when we looked pretty good, unfortunately not for a whole match but for long enough to give a glimpse of what might be. I am sure the adjustments to the squad will continue for next season, Borthwick coming in may make a difference to the pack and the lineout. I am NOT in the sack Murphy party as I think he has had a lot of problems to cope with and I want to see some stability and continuity at our club, that does not mean I am happy where we are, it just means that I don't believe wholesale change is the answer. Our Academy and Development squads are doing really well at first team we have to provide the environment where these young guys can kick on and achieve their potential and we as fans have to help in giving them that chance by being understanding of mistakes. Tom Hardwick has actually done pretty well for us this season, he did not have a good game last time out with probably four errors in a game we won. Young Jack VP had a couple of kicks charged down at the AJB other than that he actually did well and is clearly one for the future, he is not the first 9 to have a kick blocked and will not be the last.
We do need a few more wins under our belt preferably starting next week against Worcester, results in the Premiership seem to show a lack of consistency for most teams so if we can put a run of results together mid table is not out of reach

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by wellstiger » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:28 am

+1
I don't advocate the sacking of players who are learning their craft. Mistakes will be made.
I agree young James ,who is down the pecking order, is one for the future.
I believe there is a few in the squad who are not of Prem quality and never will be. Utilising them to get out of an hole only digs us in deeper.
This season is done and dusted. We must give SB the means to get a job done and rebuild WITHOUT INTERFERENCE.
Stanko is a keeper.
Didn't Ford Snr and SB work together before?
Will he want his own team?

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - 21st February 2020

Post by Crofty » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:32 am

wellstiger wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:43 am
Crofty wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:12 pm
wellstiger wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:33 am
Some one has said it P45's
If I am not up to the role for which I am employed. I either go into remedial training or shown the door.
Why are professional sports persons across all sports treated as "untouchables" We can all have an off day. When the off days become the norm - then something is wrong. At present we are saying its down to coaching - The internationals are away. The ref was poor. Recruitment and retention has been poor. We are awaiting the Saviour SB.

NO NO NO Some one say it as it is - YOU HAVE TO GO - YOUR NOT GOOD ENOUGH. :smt013 :smt013
OK, say you get your wish and we sack all the coaches on Monday, then what? Who runs the sessions on Tuesday at Oval Park in preparation for Worcester? I'm as frustrated as you by the performance we're currently being subjected to and like you I'm sure coaching is a big part of the cause but the next Head Coach has been identified, and is one who many on here wanted, now we can only wait to see what he will do with the playing and the wider coaching staff...
Did I say get rid on Monday? Was that my wish?? - This is has been a decline for 4-5 seasons and persons in all departments have accepted poor performances as the norm.
For all the excuses I have stated. If we had dealt with this at point of origin we wouldn't be scratting at "reasons " for our decline. When SB comes after 6N then you give him the tools sharpened so he can do the job and get rid of the surplace rubbish. How long does he stay?- If a top job looms is he gone? Will player power, as others have hinted at, hinder him?
So P45's and "NO NO NO Some one say it as it is - YOU HAVE TO GO - YOUR NOT GOOD ENOUGH." when? Pre Borthwick, Post Borthwick, and how long do you give him to turn things around, 1 match, 1 season, 2 seasons?

Coaches are going to be let go, some already have, some players will doubtless follow but we need to let Borthwick get here and decide for himself who and when otherwise we'll end up with another Cockers situation where the boss has to use tools not to his needs and gets sacked for saying so (and promptly goes on to turn around 2 teams in very short order).
No, not that one!

Remember, whatever you do to the smallest of the backs you do to his prop, and you can't avoid the rucks and mauls forever...

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