Saracens are relegated!

Forum to discuss everything that is Tigers related

Moderators: Tigerbeat, Rizzo, Tigers Press Office, Tigers Webmaster

Post Reply
Traveller
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 741
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:46 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Traveller »

Tiglon wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:57 pm
Traveller wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:42 pm Wasn't it the Daily Mail that lead on this issue in the first place, when all the other supposedly serious rugby journalists ran scared i.e. Chris Jones, Kitson et al.

I do get it and in many ways I do agree with you. It really is boring, a mess, but only because the people in charge of the game simply haven't dealt with the matter properly. That Edward Griffiths is saying what he is saying and we are a third of the way through the season proves the point. What other club is saying were going to have to release players or cut salaries in order to make the cap this year.

But the bigger story is the fact that it is Edward Griffiths who is saying it. He is about as intellectually sharp as a business man can be. But he was also CEO of Saracens when they had the first outbreak salaryenza. Either he didn't know which makes him incompetent (and he definitely isn't) or he didn't care. The fact that Wray has identified him as the ideal person to be in charge, to sort out the mess is a joke.
I think all we can do is hope that Griffiths/Saracens now no longer think they can get away with it and will comply. The trouble is that there are ways to get around it and there is every possibility that other clubs are paying over the cap but better at hiding it.

The salary cap is a great idea, but ultimately unenforceable and, sadly, I think a time will come when it is discarded.
I agree. It's a nice idea. But I'm not sure it will ever really work. Right now a club could spend £50m if they wanted to do so. 43+ on marquees and the rest on the squad. So whats's the difference really. It all goes back to the start of professionalism and the clubs and owners getting ahead of the RFU with regard to central contracts. Let commercial jeopardy reign. You put as much money in as you want to and if you crash you crash.
Tiglon
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3887
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Tiglon »

biffer wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:05 pm
Tiglon wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:57 pm I think all we can do is hope that Griffiths/Saracens now no longer think they can get away with it and will comply. The trouble is that there are ways to get around it and there is every possibility that other clubs are paying over the cap but better at hiding it.

The salary cap is a great idea, but ultimately unenforceable and, sadly, I think a time will come when it is discarded.
Why is it enforceable in other, wealthier sports then?
To be honest I don't know much about any of the other sports that have a cap or how they enforce it, so I can't answer your question. But I would ask how you or anyone else can be sure that, in any sport, there aren't any payments made to players that don't show up on club accounts (E.g. from sponsor or owner) so as to avoid the cap?
Flash
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 229
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:45 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Flash »

The obvious example I can think of is the NFL where they have a salary cap. I guess being franchises, powerful union and lots of money so all players earn a lot it's not that comparable to the Prem.
Cardiff Tig
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1390
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:25 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Cardiff Tig »

In these times, I would think it's incredibly unlikely that a sponsor would want to be part of an underhand tactic. Imagine the toxic fallout for their brand if it was ever out in the open. They'd much rather pay the same amount of money in a legitimate manner.
Tiglon
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3887
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Tiglon »

Cardiff Tig wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:32 pm In these times, I would think it's incredibly unlikely that a sponsor would want to be part of an underhand tactic. Imagine the toxic fallout for their brand if it was ever out in the open. They'd much rather pay the same amount of money in a legitimate manner.
Probably true. But what if a club says £2m direct, or £1m direct and £500k to Mr Farrell? Still unlikely, granted.

The owner option is much more believable though.
BFG
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3347
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by BFG »

Traveller wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:47 pm
BFG wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:19 pm
Crofty wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:59 pm

Hear :censored: hear! Is it so wrong to want the phrase to no longer be, Cheats never prosper unless it's Sarries, then cheating is fine, so it would seem, and they're victims if they're caught, punished and spoken harshly of?
Twenty years have passed since that time, the game has been pro for a long time now and the gap between leagues is very large.
If demoted immediately Sarries could retain their contracted players and smash the opposition to pieces.
That simply can't take place with an immediate demotion and anyone should be able to understand this.
Sorry. I'm sure you are not arguing that Saracens shouldn't be demoted because they would beat the opposition in the league they were demoted into. Or are you?
It would be very dangerous and simply could not happen nowadays.
There have been what are off the cuff comments from people such as Rowe that Sarries should be relegated without any explanation of how to get around the obvious playing dangers that this would pose for opposition.
Some might dislike the fact that Sarries have not been relegated but I'm afraid that in the end common sense had to be applied.
The fine was extremely large, it shocked many people and it's the strongest message they could send in my opinion.
Cardiff Tig
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1390
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:25 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Cardiff Tig »

Tiglon wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:54 pm
Cardiff Tig wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:32 pm In these times, I would think it's incredibly unlikely that a sponsor would want to be part of an underhand tactic. Imagine the toxic fallout for their brand if it was ever out in the open. They'd much rather pay the same amount of money in a legitimate manner.
Probably true. But what if a club says £2m direct, or £1m direct and £500k to Mr Farrell? Still unlikely, granted.

The owner option is much more believable though.
I think for the amounts needed to make it worthwhile (why would anyone risk anything for the odd £1000) then it would require a serious sponsor to afford it. And the more serious/well known the brand the less likely they are to play ball. I can't imagine a brand like Allianz or Caterpillar would even be interested in discussing having to set up different payments to hide things just to be associated with a rugby club.

I agree about owners/rich individuals...
BigDan50
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 573
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:56 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by BigDan50 »

Zzzzzzzzzz this discussion has become boring, let’s move on, Saracens have been found guilty, paid the price, accepted their guilt.
We need all the teams in the premiership to continue the great league we have, if we delve too deeply I think you will find that quite a lot of the clubs have sailed close to the wind with the salary cap including us.
To many posters on here think we are whiter than white, we are not, we have had warnings from the salary cap investigators about the way we pay players as have three other clubs.
Crofty
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1216
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:07 pm
Location: The bagging area (unexpectedly)

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Crofty »

BFG wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:01 pm
Traveller wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:47 pm
BFG wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:19 pm

Twenty years have passed since that time, the game has been pro for a long time now and the gap between leagues is very large.
If demoted immediately Sarries could retain their contracted players and smash the opposition to pieces.
That simply can't take place with an immediate demotion and anyone should be able to understand this.
Sorry. I'm sure you are not arguing that Saracens shouldn't be demoted because they would beat the opposition in the league they were demoted into. Or are you?
It would be very dangerous and simply could not happen nowadays.
There have been what are off the cuff comments from people such as Rowe that Sarries should be relegated without any explanation of how to get around the obvious playing dangers that this would pose for opposition.
Some might dislike the fact that Sarries have not been relegated but I'm afraid that in the end common sense had to be applied.
The fine was extremely large, it shocked many people and it's the strongest message they could send in my opinion.
Didn't have you down as pro ringfencing...
No, not that one!

Remember, whatever you do to the smallest of the backs you do to his prop, and you can't avoid the rucks and mauls forever...

I know you don't like it when I boo him but how else will he know he's wrong?

non possumus capere
BengalTiger
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 325
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:16 am

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by BengalTiger »

I see the let’s move on nothing to see here brigade are now trying to muddy the waters and say the cap is not enforceable and all clubs are probably cheating.

The cap is easy to manage, all the clubs have always known any benefit that a player on their books receives as a result of being a player on their books counts towards he cap, it is that simple, what is wrong is the deterrent and punishment for those found cheating.

Clubs may inadvertently break the limits due to changing personnel / injury etc but that is different to the systematic under-reporting of benefits that Saracens have been found to have been doing for at least 3 seasons.

Saracens have been caught as the biggest cheats in recent the history of the game but have suffered no real consequences, that is why some of us find this continued 'lets move on' posts by the salary-gate deniers so annoying / boring!
BFG
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3347
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by BFG »

Crofty wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:54 am
BFG wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:01 pm
Traveller wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:47 pm

Sorry. I'm sure you are not arguing that Saracens shouldn't be demoted because they would beat the opposition in the league they were demoted into. Or are you?
It would be very dangerous and simply could not happen nowadays.
There have been what are off the cuff comments from people such as Rowe that Sarries should be relegated without any explanation of how to get around the obvious playing dangers that this would pose for opposition.
Some might dislike the fact that Sarries have not been relegated but I'm afraid that in the end common sense had to be applied.
The fine was extremely large, it shocked many people and it's the strongest message they could send in my opinion.
Didn't have you down as pro ringfencing...
I'm not but there is obviously a gulf between leagues and more so between the top half of the Premiership and the bottom half of the Championship.
Sarries do possess the physically strongest club side in this country and in Europe, their entire squad is packed out with physically dominant established international players.
It would be a potentially dangerous cocktail.
Demotion to a lower league in this case just isn't practical in my opinion.
Traveller
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 741
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:46 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Traveller »

BFG wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:16 am
Crofty wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:54 am
BFG wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:01 pm

It would be very dangerous and simply could not happen nowadays.
There have been what are off the cuff comments from people such as Rowe that Sarries should be relegated without any explanation of how to get around the obvious playing dangers that this would pose for opposition.
Some might dislike the fact that Sarries have not been relegated but I'm afraid that in the end common sense had to be applied.
The fine was extremely large, it shocked many people and it's the strongest message they could send in my opinion.
Didn't have you down as pro ringfencing...
I'm not but there is obviously a gulf between leagues and more so between the top half of the Premiership and the bottom half of the Championship.
Sarries do possess the physically strongest club side in this country and in Europe, their entire squad is packed out with physically dominant established international players.
It would be a potentially dangerous cocktail.
Demotion to a lower league in this case just isn't practical in my opinion.
I do respect your right to express an opinion, it just doesn't seem to be a very coherent position. It might be me being slow. But the logical extension of your argument seems to be: a) IF at some stage in the future any very strong premiership club team seriously transgresses and has its premiership share removed, they can only be demoted to the Championship because the squad would be too strong to play in a lower league. Presumably this will also mean that they would then be automatically promoted the following year, because they are so strong thereby denying a club that hasn't cheated the opportunity to be promoted.

b) IF saracens are relegated this year those same conditions will apply when playing Doncaster, Yorkshire Carnegie, Ampthill, Bedford Blues. If it's unsafe. It's unsafe.
johnthegriff
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2013
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:37 am

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by johnthegriff »

The rules do not permit a Premiership team to play a side, more than two divisions between them in the interest of safety. We desperately need the funding to ensure that our second tier becomes fully professional. If Saracens are relegated they will undoubtedly release even if on loan several players who will move to maintain their international player status. Of course there is no cap in the Championship.
I believe Sarries received a just and fair punishment, if they transgress this season then there should be a further punishment with point deducted this season so if a ten point punishment is deemed appropriate it applies in the season that they have benefited from the excess. If they have made real efforts to conform that should be taken into account when assessing punishment.
Mark62
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4168
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:16 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Mark62 »

johnthegriff wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:33 am The rules do not permit a Premiership team to play a side, more than two divisions between them in the interest of safety. We desperately need the funding to ensure that our second tier becomes fully professional. If Saracens are relegated they will undoubtedly release even if on loan several players who will move to maintain their international player status. Of course there is no cap in the Championship.
I believe Sarries received a just and fair punishment, if they transgress this season then there should be a further punishment with point deducted this season so if a ten point punishment is deemed appropriate it applies in the season that they have benefited from the excess. If they have made real efforts to conform that should be taken into account when assessing punishment.
I agree funding is desperately required, but it just isn’t there. National league clubs, both 1 and 2, are crying out for increased funding from the RFU, but it isn’t forthcoming, and the demise of clubs at this level will have a knock on effect in the championship.
IMHO the premiership needs ring fencing for 5 years and there needs to be a suspension of relegation and promotion up to and including level 5, Midland Premiership, for 2 seasons in order for clubs to find their correct level, and become stable both financially and on the pitch.
If this doesn’t happen, there will be more Yorkshire Carnegies and at a local level South Leicester
TigerBoy1880
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 638
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:04 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by TigerBoy1880 »

BigDan50 wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:47 pm Zzzzzzzzzz this discussion has become boring, let’s move on, Saracens have been found guilty, paid the price, accepted their guilt.
We need all the teams in the premiership to continue the great league we have, if we delve too deeply I think you will find that quite a lot of the clubs have sailed close to the wind with the salary cap including us.
To many posters on here think we are whiter than white, we are not, we have had warnings from the salary cap investigators about the way we pay players as have three other clubs.
Why don’t you just not click into this topic?

If people want to keep talking about cheating Saracens, then they can do. They’ll always be known as cheats and people are entitled to talk about it forever more.
Post Reply