Saracens are relegated!

[sam16111986]

"
A player who is Injured for the entire season
"

Which certainly doesn't mean that the player got no income thus far this season. I trust the players' insurers will be looking in depth into the validity of their injury payments.

There's a difference between not paid and doesn't count towards the salary cap.

Williams will probably count as a marquee player so not playing him might make little difference. Goode being given the season off will make a significant saving though the injury to Mallins will make that awkward.

Most people seem to think Farrell and Itoje are the marquees. I'm not sure about Itoje but I would be very surprised if Williams was one.

The second marquee player is supposed to be a signing from outside of the league isn't it? I thought you couldn't nominate a homegrown talent. I'll see if I can find the bit of legislation later.

[BFG]

The problem with ring fencing will be that there won't be another Worcester or Exeter who eventually establish themselves as Premiership teams.

Apart from the disasterous promotion & immediate of London Welsh qhite a few dsides have come up and survived. Yes they may go down again in the future but sides do surive.

No side should have the right to stay up if their performances don't justify it.
Ring fencing will turn much of the second half of the season into a series of friendlies for some teams once they have dropped out of contention for the play offs and the major European competition which could well skew the top of the table with sides experimenting with their team having one eye on next season whilst coming up against a title contender in an away match.

Apart from the thirteen, anyone else who has achieved promotion in the pro era has ended up in disaster. No one wants it any more, except possibly Cornwall, but that's probably ten years away. I know from friends at London Scottish that they're not interested in promotion, and that it's true of most of the teams they play.

This Sarries topic is getting boring!

2020 - the Premiership is ringfenced.
2021 - the Lions tour is a big success in South Africa.
2022 - The British Irish Bokke League is announced with two Southern teams, a team from Midlands, and a team from the North playing in the new league and it's announced that international players will be centrally contracted and play in the new league.
2027 - Scotland win the World Cup under Head Coach Richard Cockerill.
2028 - the SNP asks for an independence referendum to which Prime Minister Cohen bluntly refuses and Sir Richard McCockerill is knighted.
2030 - Sir Richard McCockerill invades England!!!

[Tiglon]

I do not understand why people on here want to find any excuse to make out Saracense are victims and are not guilty of deliberatly cheating, where they find themselves now, both players and administrators is down to a culture of entitlement to flout the agreed rules with out consequence.

I still do not see how offloading players helps them, ( unless it is just PR)

From the agreement,

"Player" means, in relation to any Club, any individual (including an Excluded Player) in the relevant Salary Cap Year: (a)who is employed by that Club to play rugby including without limitation any individual employed under the Standard Form Player Contract; (b)with whom that Club has entered into any agreement, understanding or other arrangement (in each case whether written or unwritten) to play rugby; (c)who either plays rugby for that Club or is or who has been available to play rugby for that Club at any point in the relevant Salary Cap Year; (d)who is or has been on a rugby trial with that Club regardless of whether the Club has entered into a formal agreement with that individual; (e)who is a member of the Club’s England Rugby Academy; or (f)any individual as described in sub-paragraphs (a) to (e) above who has been loaned to another Club or club, regardless of whether the player appears in any fixture for the loaning Club in the Salary Cap Year;

Let's imagine Liam Williams, for example, is paid £200k per year.

They let him leave 6 months early. He agrees to waive any compensation etc because the Welsh are paying him more than £200k so leaving early earns him more money. Win win. Saracens have therefore only paid him £100k instead of £200k, so that is £100k saved from the cap.

That is how offloading players helps. Fewer players = lower wages.

[Traveller]

What is tedious is Saracens repeated cheating. Before 2015 and after 2015. What is tedious is Nigel Wray being allowed to paint himself as the victim. What is tedious is Saracens laying claim to virtues of 'honesty' and 'integrity' on their stadium walls and tackle bags. What is tedious is the way that Saracens claim that they do what they do because they care for their players as if other clubs don't.

What is really tedious is the fact that it is the former CEO Edward Griffiths returning as the 'new broom', the 'honest broker', to clear the decks, and other clubs are supposed to have confidence in him. This is the same Edward Griffiths who oversaw the 'rise' of Saracens between 2011-2015 (when they complied with the salary caps didn't they), but who parked his backside on a first class plane seat back to SA immediately prior to the 2015 investigation.

Given what the Saracens PR machine has claimed over the years, just because Griffiths says there is a cleaning up job to be done, does not mean it will be done in full. Why would anyone believe them? What is tedious is that other clubs are having to face playing against repeat offenders. What is tedious is the fact that Saracens players have distanced themselves from the whole affair, claiming to be just players who play the game rather than being financial beneficiaries. Some have clearly turned a blind eye, because they had skin in the game and didn't want to ask the right question because they might get an answer they didn't like.

I've written it before. When Richmond (founder members of the RFU and one of the oldest sporting clubs in the world - founded 1861 - went into administration in 1999 after Ashley Levitt had pumped millions into the club. Premiership Rugby removed their share immediately and they were left in the wilderness for a year. The following year they were placed in a league 9 steps down, and the RFU referred to it as 'befitting their status in the game'. They didn't cheat. Levitt invested millions. They could have done with some support. They got nothing. Players, coaches, administration staff lost their jobs. Saracens should have been kicked out of the competition. That is was is so tedious.

[Crofty]

What is tedious is Saracens repeated cheating. Before 2015 and after 2015. What is tedious is Nigel Wray being allowed to paint himself as the victim. What is tedious is Saracens laying claim to virtues of 'honesty' and 'integrity' on their stadium walls and tackle bags. What is tedious is the way that Saracens claim that they do what they do because they care for their players as if other clubs don't.

What is really tedious is the fact that it is the former CEO Edward Griffiths returning as the 'new broom', the 'honest broker', to clear the decks, and other clubs are supposed to have confidence in him. This is the same Edward Griffiths who oversaw the 'rise' of Saracens between 2011-2015 (when they complied with the salary caps didn't they), but who parked his backside on a first class plane seat back to SA immediately prior to the 2015 investigation.

Given what the Saracens PR machine has claimed over the years, just because Griffiths says there is a cleaning up job to be done, does not mean it will be done in full. Why would anyone believe them? What is tedious is that other clubs are having to face playing against repeat offenders. What is tedious is the fact that Saracens players have distanced themselves from the whole affair, claiming to be just players who play the game rather than being financial beneficiaries. Some have clearly turned a blind eye, because they had skin in the game and didn't want to ask the right question because they might get an answer they didn't like.

I've written it before. When Richmond (founder members of the RFU and one of the oldest sporting clubs in the world - founded 1861 - went into administration in 1999 after Ashley Levitt had pumped millions into the club. Premiership Rugby removed their share immediately and they were left in the wilderness for a year. The following year they were placed in a league 9 steps down, and the RFU referred to it as 'befitting their status in the game'. They didn't cheat. Levitt invested millions. They could have done with some support. They got nothing. Players, coaches, administration staff lost their jobs. Saracens should have been kicked out of the competition. That is was is so tedious.

Hear :censored: hear! Is it so wrong to want the phrase to no longer be, Cheats never prosper unless it's Sarries, then cheating is fine, so it would seem, and they're victims if they're caught, punished and spoken harshly of?

[RAFPvetTiger]

Traveller & Crofty. Many thanks.

[Tiglon]

What is tedious is Saracens repeated cheating. Before 2015 and after 2015. What is tedious is Nigel Wray being allowed to paint himself as the victim. What is tedious is Saracens laying claim to virtues of 'honesty' and 'integrity' on their stadium walls and tackle bags. What is tedious is the way that Saracens claim that they do what they do because they care for their players as if other clubs don't.

What is really tedious is the fact that it is the former CEO Edward Griffiths returning as the 'new broom', the 'honest broker', to clear the decks, and other clubs are supposed to have confidence in him. This is the same Edward Griffiths who oversaw the 'rise' of Saracens between 2011-2015 (when they complied with the salary caps didn't they), but who parked his backside on a first class plane seat back to SA immediately prior to the 2015 investigation.

Given what the Saracens PR machine has claimed over the years, just because Griffiths says there is a cleaning up job to be done, does not mean it will be done in full. Why would anyone believe them? What is tedious is that other clubs are having to face playing against repeat offenders. What is tedious is the fact that Saracens players have distanced themselves from the whole affair, claiming to be just players who play the game rather than being financial beneficiaries. Some have clearly turned a blind eye, because they had skin in the game and didn't want to ask the right question because they might get an answer they didn't like.

I've written it before. When Richmond (founder members of the RFU and one of the oldest sporting clubs in the world - founded 1861 - went into administration in 1999 after Ashley Levitt had pumped millions into the club. Premiership Rugby removed their share immediately and they were left in the wilderness for a year. The following year they were placed in a league 9 steps down, and the RFU referred to it as 'befitting their status in the game'. They didn't cheat. Levitt invested millions. They could have done with some support. They got nothing. Players, coaches, administration staff lost their jobs. Saracens should have been kicked out of the competition. That is was is so tedious.

You could probably count on one hand the people outside of Sarries who thinks Wray or Saracens as a club are victims. Wray is a rich bloke who has spent most of his life being told he's right, so he throws a tantrum when he's told otherwise and acts like a victim. He's not used to being told off so he's hurt and embarrassed and isn't capable of admitting any fault or responsibility. No one's buying it, but there's nothing you or I or anyone else can do to change it. Wray will sit at home fuming about his unjust treatment like a child who has been sent to the naughty step blaming it on everyone else, regardless of what you post on this forum.

I think most of us would agree that what happened to Richmond was tragic and should have been avoided. All the more reason not to let it happen again if it can be avoided, no? Does the club cheating justify putting all their employees out of work, most of whom will have had no party to or knowledge of the offences? Let us not forget that Wray has invested a lot in rugby too, and done a lot for the sport - that in no way mitigates his cheating, but it would be as outrageous to ignore that good work as it would be to ignore the cheating. Nothing is ever black and white, surely rugby is too intelligent a group of people to paint him as a pantomime villain in a world of saints.

We all agree that Saracens should be punished, and they have been - some think it should have been stronger punishment, some don't. We all agree that if they are over the cap this year or in future, they should be punished again. Unfortunately though, any of the clubs could be breaking the salary cap through third party payments and there would be no way to detect it, unless someone whistle blows.

What I find tedious is all this moral outrage, people up on their high horses decrying it as the crime of the century. Repeatedly. "They must still be over the cap!" "Once a cheat always a cheat" "Relegate them!" "Take them to court!" It is all very Daily Mail and based on very little in the way of facts or verified information. It was serious cheating and, in my opinion, the punishment was about right - as long as they (along with every other club) are now thoroughly policed. You're entitled to your opinion too, of course you are, and I respect it, but do we need to go over the same thing again and again?

[BFG]

What is tedious is Saracens repeated cheating. Before 2015 and after 2015. What is tedious is Nigel Wray being allowed to paint himself as the victim. What is tedious is Saracens laying claim to virtues of 'honesty' and 'integrity' on their stadium walls and tackle bags. What is tedious is the way that Saracens claim that they do what they do because they care for their players as if other clubs don't.

What is really tedious is the fact that it is the former CEO Edward Griffiths returning as the 'new broom', the 'honest broker', to clear the decks, and other clubs are supposed to have confidence in him. This is the same Edward Griffiths who oversaw the 'rise' of Saracens between 2011-2015 (when they complied with the salary caps didn't they), but who parked his backside on a first class plane seat back to SA immediately prior to the 2015 investigation.

Given what the Saracens PR machine has claimed over the years, just because Griffiths says there is a cleaning up job to be done, does not mean it will be done in full. Why would anyone believe them? What is tedious is that other clubs are having to face playing against repeat offenders. What is tedious is the fact that Saracens players have distanced themselves from the whole affair, claiming to be just players who play the game rather than being financial beneficiaries. Some have clearly turned a blind eye, because they had skin in the game and didn't want to ask the right question because they might get an answer they didn't like.

I've written it before. When Richmond (founder members of the RFU and one of the oldest sporting clubs in the world - founded 1861 - went into administration in 1999 after Ashley Levitt had pumped millions into the club. Premiership Rugby removed their share immediately and they were left in the wilderness for a year. The following year they were placed in a league 9 steps down, and the RFU referred to it as 'befitting their status in the game'. They didn't cheat. Levitt invested millions. They could have done with some support. They got nothing. Players, coaches, administration staff lost their jobs. Saracens should have been kicked out of the competition. That is was is so tedious.

Hear hear! Is it so wrong to want the phrase to no longer be, Cheats never prosper unless it's Sarries, then cheating is fine, so it would seem, and they're victims if they're caught, punished and spoken harshly of?

Twenty years have passed since that time, the game has been pro for a long time now and the gap between leagues is very large.
If demoted immediately Sarries could retain their contracted players and smash the opposition to pieces.
That simply can't take place with an immediate demotion and anyone should be able to understand this.

[loretta]

This Sarries topic is getting boring!

I've got to say, there's a pretty obvious solution for you.

Stop reading it?

[Tiglon]

Hear hear! Is it so wrong to want the phrase to no longer be, Cheats never prosper unless it's Sarries, then cheating is fine, so it would seem, and they're victims if they're caught, punished and spoken harshly of?

Seriously though, who is portraying them as victims, other than themselves? You seem outraged by something that doesn't even appear to be happening.

[BFG]

This Sarries topic is getting boring!

I've got to say, there's a pretty obvious solution for you.

Stop reading it?

It's still boring as...

[Traveller]

What is tedious is Saracens repeated cheating. Before 2015 and after 2015. What is tedious is Nigel Wray being allowed to paint himself as the victim. What is tedious is Saracens laying claim to virtues of 'honesty' and 'integrity' on their stadium walls and tackle bags. What is tedious is the way that Saracens claim that they do what they do because they care for their players as if other clubs don't.

What is really tedious is the fact that it is the former CEO Edward Griffiths returning as the 'new broom', the 'honest broker', to clear the decks, and other clubs are supposed to have confidence in him. This is the same Edward Griffiths who oversaw the 'rise' of Saracens between 2011-2015 (when they complied with the salary caps didn't they), but who parked his backside on a first class plane seat back to SA immediately prior to the 2015 investigation.

Given what the Saracens PR machine has claimed over the years, just because Griffiths says there is a cleaning up job to be done, does not mean it will be done in full. Why would anyone believe them? What is tedious is that other clubs are having to face playing against repeat offenders. What is tedious is the fact that Saracens players have distanced themselves from the whole affair, claiming to be just players who play the game rather than being financial beneficiaries. Some have clearly turned a blind eye, because they had skin in the game and didn't want to ask the right question because they might get an answer they didn't like.

I've written it before. When Richmond (founder members of the RFU and one of the oldest sporting clubs in the world - founded 1861 - went into administration in 1999 after Ashley Levitt had pumped millions into the club. Premiership Rugby removed their share immediately and they were left in the wilderness for a year. The following year they were placed in a league 9 steps down, and the RFU referred to it as 'befitting their status in the game'. They didn't cheat. Levitt invested millions. They could have done with some support. They got nothing. Players, coaches, administration staff lost their jobs. Saracens should have been kicked out of the competition. That is was is so tedious.

You could probably count on one hand the people outside of Sarries who thinks Wray or Saracens as a club are victims. Wray is a rich bloke who has spent most of his life being told he's right, so he throws a tantrum when he's told otherwise and acts like a victim. He's not used to being told off so he's hurt and embarrassed and isn't capable of admitting any fault or responsibility. No one's buying it, but there's nothing you or I or anyone else can do to change it. Wray will sit at home fuming about his unjust treatment like a child who has been sent to the naughty step blaming it on everyone else, regardless of what you post on this forum.

I think most of us would agree that what happened to Richmond was tragic and should have been avoided. All the more reason not to let it happen again if it can be avoided, no? Does the club cheating justify putting all their employees out of work, most of whom will have had no party to or knowledge of the offences? Let us not forget that Wray has invested a lot in rugby too, and done a lot for the sport - that in no way mitigates his cheating, but it would be as outrageous to ignore that good work as it would be to ignore the cheating. Nothing is ever black and white, surely rugby is too intelligent a group of people to paint him as a pantomime villain in a world of saints.

We all agree that Saracens should be punished, and they have been - some think it should have been stronger punishment, some don't. We all agree that if they are over the cap this year or in future, they should be punished again. Unfortunately though, any of the clubs could be breaking the salary cap through third party payments and there would be no way to detect it, unless someone whistle blows.

What I find tedious is all this moral outrage, people up on their high horses decrying it as the crime of the century. Repeatedly. "They must still be over the cap!" "Once a cheat always a cheat" "Relegate them!" "Take them to court!" It is all very Daily Mail and based on very little in the way of facts or verified information. It was serious cheating and, in my opinion, the punishment was about right - as long as they (along with every other club) are now thoroughly policed. You're entitled to your opinion too, of course you are, and I respect it, but do we need to go over the same thing again and again?

Wasn't it the Daily Mail that lead on this issue in the first place, when all the other supposedly serious rugby journalists ran scared i.e. Chris Jones, Kitson et al.

I do get it and in many ways I do agree with you. It really is boring, a mess, but only because the people in charge of the game simply haven't dealt with the matter properly. That Edward Griffiths is saying what he is saying and we are a third of the way through the season proves the point. What other club is saying were going to have to release players or cut salaries in order to make the cap this year.

But the bigger story is the fact that it is Edward Griffiths who is saying it. He is about as intellectually sharp as a business man can be. But he was also CEO of Saracens when they had the first outbreak salaryenza. Either he didn't know which makes him incompetent (and he definitely isn't) or he didn't care. The fact that Wray has identified him as the ideal person to be in charge, to sort out the mess is a joke.

[Traveller]

What is tedious is Saracens repeated cheating. Before 2015 and after 2015. What is tedious is Nigel Wray being allowed to paint himself as the victim. What is tedious is Saracens laying claim to virtues of 'honesty' and 'integrity' on their stadium walls and tackle bags. What is tedious is the way that Saracens claim that they do what they do because they care for their players as if other clubs don't.

What is really tedious is the fact that it is the former CEO Edward Griffiths returning as the 'new broom', the 'honest broker', to clear the decks, and other clubs are supposed to have confidence in him. This is the same Edward Griffiths who oversaw the 'rise' of Saracens between 2011-2015 (when they complied with the salary caps didn't they), but who parked his backside on a first class plane seat back to SA immediately prior to the 2015 investigation.

Given what the Saracens PR machine has claimed over the years, just because Griffiths says there is a cleaning up job to be done, does not mean it will be done in full. Why would anyone believe them? What is tedious is that other clubs are having to face playing against repeat offenders. What is tedious is the fact that Saracens players have distanced themselves from the whole affair, claiming to be just players who play the game rather than being financial beneficiaries. Some have clearly turned a blind eye, because they had skin in the game and didn't want to ask the right question because they might get an answer they didn't like.

I've written it before. When Richmond (founder members of the RFU and one of the oldest sporting clubs in the world - founded 1861 - went into administration in 1999 after Ashley Levitt had pumped millions into the club. Premiership Rugby removed their share immediately and they were left in the wilderness for a year. The following year they were placed in a league 9 steps down, and the RFU referred to it as 'befitting their status in the game'. They didn't cheat. Levitt invested millions. They could have done with some support. They got nothing. Players, coaches, administration staff lost their jobs. Saracens should have been kicked out of the competition. That is was is so tedious.

Hear hear! Is it so wrong to want the phrase to no longer be, Cheats never prosper unless it's Sarries, then cheating is fine, so it would seem, and they're victims if they're caught, punished and spoken harshly of?

Twenty years have passed since that time, the game has been pro for a long time now and the gap between leagues is very large.
If demoted immediately Sarries could retain their contracted players and smash the opposition to pieces.
That simply can't take place with an immediate demotion and anyone should be able to understand this.

Sorry. I'm sure you are not arguing that Saracens shouldn't be demoted because they would beat the opposition in the league they were demoted into. Or are you?

[Tiglon]

Wasn't it the Daily Mail that lead on this issue in the first place, when all the other supposedly serious rugby journalists ran scared i.e. Chris Jones, Kitson et al.

I do get it and in many ways I do agree with you. It really is boring, a mess, but only because the people in charge of the game simply haven't dealt with the matter properly. That Edward Griffiths is saying what he is saying and we are a third of the way through the season proves the point. What other club is saying were going to have to release players or cut salaries in order to make the cap this year.

But the bigger story is the fact that it is Edward Griffiths who is saying it. He is about as intellectually sharp as a business man can be. But he was also CEO of Saracens when they had the first outbreak salaryenza. Either he didn't know which makes him incompetent (and he definitely isn't) or he didn't care. The fact that Wray has identified him as the ideal person to be in charge, to sort out the mess is a joke.

I think all we can do is hope that Griffiths/Saracens now no longer think they can get away with it and will comply. The trouble is that there are ways to get around it and there is every possibility that other clubs are paying over the cap but better at hiding it.

The salary cap is a great idea, but ultimately unenforceable and, sadly, I think a time will come when it is discarded.

[biffer]

Wasn't it the Daily Mail that lead on this issue in the first place, when all the other supposedly serious rugby journalists ran scared i.e. Chris Jones, Kitson et al.

I do get it and in many ways I do agree with you. It really is boring, a mess, but only because the people in charge of the game simply haven't dealt with the matter properly. That Edward Griffiths is saying what he is saying and we are a third of the way through the season proves the point. What other club is saying were going to have to release players or cut salaries in order to make the cap this year.

But the bigger story is the fact that it is Edward Griffiths who is saying it. He is about as intellectually sharp as a business man can be. But he was also CEO of Saracens when they had the first outbreak salaryenza. Either he didn't know which makes him incompetent (and he definitely isn't) or he didn't care. The fact that Wray has identified him as the ideal person to be in charge, to sort out the mess is a joke.

I think all we can do is hope that Griffiths/Saracens now no longer think they can get away with it and will comply. The trouble is that there are ways to get around it and there is every possibility that other clubs are paying over the cap but better at hiding it.

The salary cap is a great idea, but ultimately unenforceable and, sadly, I think a time will come when it is discarded.

Why is it enforceable in other, wealthier sports then?