CJ wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:10 pm
Latest on BBC is that they may have to reduce their squad to comply this year. Or get payers to take a pay cut. To my way of thinking, this implies that they are still over the cap - so what will happen to the points they have won so far?
And the Telegraph includes this...
“ Saracens players will be forced to take salary cuts or face redundancy, incoming chief executive Edward Griffiths has warned, as the disgraced club takes unprecedented steps to slash costs in line with new pay-cap checks.
The all-conquering squad - which includes Owen Farrell and a host of England internationals preparing for next month's Six Nations - will be told in meetings this week that several players are potentially facing the axe due to increased scrutiny by Premiership Rugby.”
I think that's an illustration of the contempt Sarries have shown. They knew they were over the cap (and probably by a country mile) knowing they were going t be fined yet carried on signing the likes of Daly.
Did they underestimate the size of the punishment and assumed it would be as trivial as the last time they were caught only now has the penny dropped that the league are really taking action?
If we assume the salary bills of the likes of Tigers and Exeter are around the salary cap, the numbers of quality players Sarries have makes it difficult to comprehend that they could be compliant this year.
CJ wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:10 pm
Latest on BBC is that they may have to reduce their squad to comply this year. Or get payers to take a pay cut. To my way of thinking, this implies that they are still over the cap - so what will happen to the points they have won so far?
And the Telegraph includes this...
“ Saracens players will be forced to take salary cuts or face redundancy, incoming chief executive Edward Griffiths has warned, as the disgraced club takes unprecedented steps to slash costs in line with new pay-cap checks.
The all-conquering squad - which includes Owen Farrell and a host of England internationals preparing for next month's Six Nations - will be told in meetings this week that several players are potentially facing the axe due to increased scrutiny by Premiership Rugby.”
I think that's an illustration of the contempt Sarries have shown. They knew they were over the cap (and probably by a country mile) knowing they were going t be fined yet carried on signing the likes of Daly.
Did they underestimate the size of the punishment and assumed it would be as trivial as the last time they were caught only now has the penny dropped that the league are really taking action?
If we assume the salary bills of the likes of Tigers and Exeter are around the salary cap, the numbers of quality players Sarries have makes it difficult to comprehend that they could be compliant this year.
I have mentioned a couple of times that I thought I heard Micheal Rhodes had left immediately, no one else seems to have heard this, could it be a panic move to make a big saving in their salary cap!
Last edited by LE18 on Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is still an "if", all Griffiths has said is that they're reviewing things and if it needs reducing then either some players take cuts or they reduce the head count - I think it's a PR statement to show everyone they want to play fair now and say they're willing to do whatever it takes to comply with the rules.
If they do need to reduce their wage bill, I would imagine they would wait until theyre safe from relegation and then cut loose any players who are out of contract at the end of the season.
How easy it is legally to terminate someone's fixed term contract early like that, I dont know. Maybe compensation for early termination of contract doesn't count towards the cap.
So does that mean that they can play a player until just short of the end of the season, terminate the contract and none of the salary count towards the cap? Or is it proportional?
If it's the former then it is another way round the cap. Play them until almost the end of the season, 'terminate' their contract and only keep the players you need for the final match. Re-sign them and do the same next season!
Effectively all but the 23 required for the final game could be terminated the day before the league final if that's the case.
mol2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:42 am
So does that mean that they can play a player until just short of the end of the season, terminate the contract and none of the salary count towards the cap? Or is it proportional?
If it's the former then it is another way round the cap. Play them until almost the end of the season, 'terminate' their contract and only keep the players you need for the final match. Re-sign them and do the same next season!
Effectively all but the 23 required for the final game could be terminated the day before the league final if that's the case.
It sounds like that although I am only going on what I have read here and have not looked at the rules. If it is like that it is plain daft and a case of hitting the target but missing the point.
mol2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:42 am
So does that mean that they can play a player until just short of the end of the season, terminate the contract and none of the salary count towards the cap? Or is it proportional?
If it's the former then it is another way round the cap. Play them until almost the end of the season, 'terminate' their contract and only keep the players you need for the final match. Re-sign them and do the same next season!
Effectively all but the 23 required for the final game could be terminated the day before the league final if that's the case.
It sounds like that although I am only going on what I have read here and have not looked at the rules. If it is like that it is plain daft and a case of hitting the target but missing the point.
It's just a sum of wages up to the current date. Every team will have spent around 50% cap up to this point (excluding Sarries who have probably spent 80% ). Hence why Harrison's salary will count towards our cap for the half-season he was here.
mol2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:42 am
So does that mean that they can play a player until just short of the end of the season, terminate the contract and none of the salary count towards the cap? Or is it proportional?
If it's the former then it is another way round the cap. Play them until almost the end of the season, 'terminate' their contract and only keep the players you need for the final match. Re-sign them and do the same next season!
Effectively all but the 23 required for the final game could be terminated the day before the league final if that's the case.
It sounds like that although I am only going on what I have read here and have not looked at the rules. If it is like that it is plain daft and a case of hitting the target but missing the point.
Of course it doesn't work like that. Up to the current date doesn't matter either, it's only the salary cap year as a whole that is judged, although some teams may be audited part way through to see if they are likely to comply by the end.
Simply put, it's the total money paid to players during the salary cap year (with adjustments for EPS etc). It's irrelevant whether a player is still contracted at the end or not.
What I was getting at with my previous post is that, if Sarries are safe and stuck in mid table let's say 2 months before the end of the salary cap year, they could possibly terminate the contracts of those leaving at the end of the season early, thus saving those last two months of those players' salaries. That's not a loophole or way around the cap at all.
Surely if a players contract is terminated early and paid up then they have effectively been paid a for the duration of that contract and hence there would be no saving.
mol2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:42 am
So does that mean that they can play a player until just short of the end of the season, terminate the contract and none of the salary count towards the cap? Or is it proportional?
If it's the former then it is another way round the cap. Play them until almost the end of the season, 'terminate' their contract and only keep the players you need for the final match. Re-sign them and do the same next season!
Effectively all but the 23 required for the final game could be terminated the day before the league final if that's the case.
It sounds like that although I am only going on what I have read here and have not looked at the rules. If it is like that it is plain daft and a case of hitting the target but missing the point.
I have looked at the rules and they are quite complex but my reading of them has led me to believe the following - All salaries paid to any registered player will count towards the salary cap AT THE END OF THE SEASON. Therefore no-one can be over the cap on projected payments unless they are actually made before the end of the season. Loan players, academy graduates. injury dispensation and international players have extra rules, but what is included are
"Payment in kind a player would not have received were not for his involvement with a Club
Redundancy/Compromise etc.
Agent Fees plus VAT & NI"
Therefore terminating a contract costs would be included in the cap.
All fines/punishments therefore must be retrospective and it is not in the rules that I can find that a club can be stripped of any trophies won during the season the club was found to be over the cap.
Accounts are submitted in July for scrutiny which seems to me far too late, would much rather that it was a 2 stage process - interim accounts in December and final accounts in July. At the December stage a club would have to include projected spends so that the officer can look at it and say "wooooow - you will be over if you continue like this - please adjust or you will suffer points/fines deductions in March if you cannot prove you have complied" That way the offending club would be punished in the season they have offended in
chewbacca wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:03 am
Surely if a players contract is terminated early and paid up then they have effectively been paid a for the duration of that contract and hence there would be no saving.
I'm not sure, there's nothing in the rules that says compensation for early termination of contract would be counted.
Usually, compensation for breach of contract would be paid after the contract has been breached/terminated, so would not be (in employment law) a payment to an employee and does not attract income tax, NI etc. Therefore, it might not also count towards the salary cap.
You could argue that a payment specifically not to play rugby for the club should, in all fairness, not count towards the cap. It would be, after all paying to make your squad weaker.
chewbacca wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:03 am
Surely if a players contract is terminated early and paid up then they have effectively been paid a for the duration of that contract and hence there would be no saving.
I'm not sure, there's nothing in the rules that says compensation for early termination of contract would be counted.
Usually, compensation for breach of contract would be paid after the contract has been breached/terminated, so would not be (in employment law) a payment to an employee and does not attract income tax, NI etc. Therefore, it might not also count towards the salary cap.
You could argue that a payment specifically not to play rugby for the club should, in all fairness, not count towards the cap. It would be, after all paying to make your squad weaker.
Redundancy and compromise agreement payments are included in the cap. Making players redundant at the end of the season would only help if the amount paid to them in redundancy/compromise is less than the salary. This is possible if players contracts were terminated soonish (e.g. if someone's contract has a 3 month notice period - there is still more than 3 months salary "to go" so a potential saving).
Also going back to the original breach and what little information we had - the salaries were within the cap. The amounts that took it over were the direct investments from Wray into companies that several players owned or co-owned. As long as these payments are not made this season, then Saracens are probably within the cap for this season i.e. they had been making sure the actual salary bill was within the cap.
Of course, if any payments, or commitments to pay, into these companies has been made this season, then Saracens have a problem ... but not until after the end of the season!
). Hence why Harrison's salary will count towards our cap for the half-season he was here.