Saracens are relegated!

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Noggs
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Noggs » Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:22 pm

I suspect he is an admirer of a well know 'Boris' recently seen on ITV. Both have the same attitude when it come to telling the truth. :smt009

It was good to see Racing give them a stuffing at the weekend. :smt041
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by RichieB » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:45 pm

sapajo wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:28 am
ABClub wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:07 am

Jones is the only one to suggest they might 'retire' for the 6 Nations anyway.
Surely ultimately it is down to Jones as to which if any Saracens player(s) he "retires" for the six nations? If he decides to do so then that would raise serious impartiality issues and destroy the relationship between England and all the other premiership clubs who supply players to England and are in a relegation battle?
Eddie has personal history with Sarries having previously coached and consulted for them. I hope he doesn't let this influence his selection decisions. It would set a terrible precedent if he didn't select their players purely to help the club avoid relegation.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by strawclearer » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:16 am

As reported in WalesOnline today:

Mark McCall, Saracens director of rugby, says their players will be available to Eddie Jones for the Six Nations.

The England coach had expressed fears that Saracens stars could choose to help their club side try to overcome their docked points for breaching salary cap rules.

But McCall says that won't be the case.

"I genuinely want our players to play for England. Of course I do, it's the absolute pinnacle of the game," he said.

"Wanting to play in the Six Nations doesn't mean you're not committed to the club.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Jimmy Skitz » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:34 pm

all Eddie had to do is have this conversation with them

EJ: Oh you're worried about relegation?

player: yes Eddie I'm going to stay and fight against that.

EJ: oh so you've retired from international Rugby?

player: no Eddie I just want to do this

EJ: well if you're not retired I'm calling you up, see you in camp!

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Tiglon » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:56 pm

Jimmy Skitz wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:34 pm
all Eddie had to do is have this conversation with them

EJ: Oh you're worried about relegation?

player: yes Eddie I'm going to stay and fight against that.

EJ: oh so you've retired from international Rugby?

player: no Eddie I just want to do this

EJ: well if you're not retired I'm calling you up, see you in camp!
player: no Eddie I just told you I'm not available, so I won't be there.

EJ: well maybe I won't pick you in future. Oh wait, you're Maro Itoje... you'll be back in the squad when you say you're available.

An England call up is an invitation, not an obligation.
RichieB wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:45 pm
sapajo wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:28 am
ABClub wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:07 am

Jones is the only one to suggest they might 'retire' for the 6 Nations anyway.
Surely ultimately it is down to Jones as to which if any Saracens player(s) he "retires" for the six nations? If he decides to do so then that would raise serious impartiality issues and destroy the relationship between England and all the other premiership clubs who supply players to England and are in a relegation battle?
Eddie has personal history with Sarries having previously coached and consulted for them. I hope he doesn't let this influence his selection decisions. It would set a terrible precedent if he didn't select their players purely to help the club avoid relegation.
No one has suggested that Eddie won't pick any players to help Saracens. I think you've jumped the gun a bit there. It would also set a terrible precedent if Eddie Jones stole a million pounds from the RFU, but there's no reason to think it will happen so why speculate about it and condemn him in anticipation?

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by RichieB » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:02 pm

1) I believe it was Eddie Jones himself who was the first to come out and mention the potential loss of Saracens players from the England squad. I'm not aware that anyone else mentioned it before he did. If anyone is guilty of speculation, it is he
2) I didn't hear about him stealing a Million Pounds from RFU - where did you hear that?

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Jimmy Skitz » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:24 pm

Tiglon wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:56 pm
Jimmy Skitz wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:34 pm
all Eddie had to do is have this conversation with them

EJ: Oh you're worried about relegation?

player: yes Eddie I'm going to stay and fight against that.

EJ: oh so you've retired from international Rugby?

player: no Eddie I just want to do this

EJ: well if you're not retired I'm calling you up, see you in camp!
player: no Eddie I just told you I'm not available, so I won't be there.

EJ: well maybe I won't pick you in future. Oh wait, you're Maro Itoje... you'll be back in the squad when you say you're available.

An England call up is an invitation, not an obligation.
let me correct that for you.

EJ: I don't care if you're Maro Itoje I have plenty of commited second rows available so turn up and play or announce your international retirement and give up the extra money the RFU pays you

or

Why do I care if you won't play Owen, I have George Ford and can call up Danny Cipriani.

or he's leaving himself open this this conversation happening

Tigers players: well Eddie as you know we are struggling against relegation ourselves much like Saracens, so just like they have we have all decided to stay and concentrate of avoiding that with Tigers.

and suddenly he's lost his entire back line, 2 loose heads, hooker and Number 8

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Tiglon » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:51 pm

Jimmy Skitz wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:24 pm
Tiglon wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:56 pm
Jimmy Skitz wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:34 pm
all Eddie had to do is have this conversation with them

EJ: Oh you're worried about relegation?

player: yes Eddie I'm going to stay and fight against that.

EJ: oh so you've retired from international Rugby?

player: no Eddie I just want to do this

EJ: well if you're not retired I'm calling you up, see you in camp!
player: no Eddie I just told you I'm not available, so I won't be there.

EJ: well maybe I won't pick you in future. Oh wait, you're Maro Itoje... you'll be back in the squad when you say you're available.

An England call up is an invitation, not an obligation.
let me correct that for you.

EJ: I don't care if you're Maro Itoje I have plenty of commited second rows available so turn up and play or announce your international retirement and give up the extra money the RFU pays you

or

Why do I care if you won't play Owen, I have George Ford and can call up Danny Cipriani.

or he's leaving himself open this this conversation happening

Tigers players: well Eddie as you know we are struggling against relegation ourselves much like Saracens, so just like they have we have all decided to stay and concentrate of avoiding that with Tigers.

and suddenly he's lost his entire back line, 2 loose heads, hooker and Number 8
Maybe it would go like that if Eddie Jones was a petulant and overly defensive 12 year old, rather than a pragmatic adult. Is that what happened when Marler decided to be available for England again? Or did Jones happily welcome him back because he made the squad stronger? Sounds like Jones is probably more of a pragmatic adult than a petulant 12 year old, what do you think?
RichieB wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:02 pm
1) I believe it was Eddie Jones himself who was the first to come out and mention the potential loss of Saracens players from the England squad. I'm not aware that anyone else mentioned it before he did. If anyone is guilty of speculation, it is he
2) I didn't hear about him stealing a Million Pounds from RFU - where did you hear that?
1) He speculated that players may choose not to play for England, not that he would choose not to pick them.
2) I didn't hear about him choosing not to select Saracens players for the Six Nations due to his loyalty to former club - where did you hear that?

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Jimmy Skitz » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:58 pm

Tiglon wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:51 pm
Jimmy Skitz wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:24 pm
Tiglon wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:56 pm


player: no Eddie I just told you I'm not available, so I won't be there.

EJ: well maybe I won't pick you in future. Oh wait, you're Maro Itoje... you'll be back in the squad when you say you're available.

An England call up is an invitation, not an obligation.
let me correct that for you.

EJ: I don't care if you're Maro Itoje I have plenty of commited second rows available so turn up and play or announce your international retirement and give up the extra money the RFU pays you

or

Why do I care if you won't play Owen, I have George Ford and can call up Danny Cipriani.

or he's leaving himself open this this conversation happening

Tigers players: well Eddie as you know we are struggling against relegation ourselves much like Saracens, so just like they have we have all decided to stay and concentrate of avoiding that with Tigers.

and suddenly he's lost his entire back line, 2 loose heads, hooker and Number 8
Maybe it would go like that if Eddie Jones was a petulant and overly defensive 12 year old, rather than a pragmatic adult. Is that what happened when Marler decided to be available for England again? Or did Jones happily welcome him back because he made the squad stronger? Sounds like Jones is probably more of a pragmatic adult than a petulant 12 year old, what do you think?
RichieB wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:02 pm
1) I believe it was Eddie Jones himself who was the first to come out and mention the potential loss of Saracens players from the England squad. I'm not aware that anyone else mentioned it before he did. If anyone is guilty of speculation, it is he
2) I didn't hear about him stealing a Million Pounds from RFU - where did you hear that?
1) He speculated that players may choose not to play for England, not that he would choose not to pick them.
2) I didn't hear about him choosing not to select Saracens players for the Six Nations due to his loyalty to former club - where did you hear that?
and as others pointed out if he does excuse the Saracens players to fight off relegation his position becomes untenable as he is showing a bias to one side so why would Tigers allow our entire back line to go when a direct relegation rival is being allowed to keep all their best players? Do you really think Premiership clubs won't jump on the chance to stick the boot into Saracens again?

Jones has to take a firm stance on this or the RFU will be forced to sack him to actually be able to field an England team

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by ABClub » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:40 pm

Premiership sides get £40k fixed credit, i.e. cap exemption, for all players named in the EPS. The EPS is no longer made public but it's certain that Mako and Billy Vunipola, George, Itoje, Kruis, Farrell and Daly are all in the EPS.

If they opt out, which no players have suggested they might, then they lose their EPS contracts and effectively add £280k to Saracens troubles getting under the cap this season.

The players themselves will also be giving up £25k a start in match fees, a chance at a 6 Nations title and caps.

I see no way that any of the Sarries players will opt out willing.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Jimmy Skitz » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:56 pm

ABClub wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:40 pm
Premiership sides get £40k fixed credit, i.e. cap exemption, for all players named in the EPS. The EPS is no longer made public but it's certain that Mako and Billy Vunipola, George, Itoje, Kruis, Farrell and Daly are all in the EPS.

If they opt out, which no players have suggested they might, then they lose their EPS contracts and effectively add £280k to Saracens troubles getting under the cap this season.

The players themselves will also be giving up £25k a start in match fees, a chance at a 6 Nations title and caps.

I see no way that any of the Sarries players will opt out willing.
nor should they and nor should anyone at Sarries, which to be fair I don't think the have, expect them to do, Sarries are in this position due to their actions not the players

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Tiglon » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:06 pm

Jimmy Skitz wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:58 pm
Tiglon wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:51 pm
Jimmy Skitz wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:24 pm


let me correct that for you.

EJ: I don't care if you're Maro Itoje I have plenty of commited second rows available so turn up and play or announce your international retirement and give up the extra money the RFU pays you

or

Why do I care if you won't play Owen, I have George Ford and can call up Danny Cipriani.

or he's leaving himself open this this conversation happening

Tigers players: well Eddie as you know we are struggling against relegation ourselves much like Saracens, so just like they have we have all decided to stay and concentrate of avoiding that with Tigers.

and suddenly he's lost his entire back line, 2 loose heads, hooker and Number 8
Maybe it would go like that if Eddie Jones was a petulant and overly defensive 12 year old, rather than a pragmatic adult. Is that what happened when Marler decided to be available for England again? Or did Jones happily welcome him back because he made the squad stronger? Sounds like Jones is probably more of a pragmatic adult than a petulant 12 year old, what do you think?
RichieB wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:02 pm
1) I believe it was Eddie Jones himself who was the first to come out and mention the potential loss of Saracens players from the England squad. I'm not aware that anyone else mentioned it before he did. If anyone is guilty of speculation, it is he
2) I didn't hear about him stealing a Million Pounds from RFU - where did you hear that?
1) He speculated that players may choose not to play for England, not that he would choose not to pick them.
2) I didn't hear about him choosing not to select Saracens players for the Six Nations due to his loyalty to former club - where did you hear that?
and as others pointed out if he does excuse the Saracens players to fight off relegation his position becomes untenable as he is showing a bias to one side so why would Tigers allow our entire back line to go when a direct relegation rival is being allowed to keep all their best players? Do you really think Premiership clubs won't jump on the chance to stick the boot into Saracens again?

Jones has to take a firm stance on this or the RFU will be forced to sack him to actually be able to field an England team
I think you misunderstand the situation. England/Jones cannot force anyone to play for England. Saracens can neither force their players to play for England nor force them to withdraw. It's the players that would have to decide.

So the other poster said if Sarries players withdraw then Jones won't care because he has plenty of other players and would never pick them again, you're saying that England wouldn't be able to field a team without them and Jones would be sacked. Do you think it's possible that in between black and white there is a more sensible and realistic shade of grey? If it evens happen which it most likely won't.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by longlivethecrumbie » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:18 pm

Aliastair Eykyn has tweeted about developments around Sarries and their cap compliance this season: https://twitter.com/alastaireykyn/statu ... 17088?s=19

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Cagey Tiger » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:04 am

The Times is saying that PRL are looking at doing a mid-season audit of Sarries, now-ish. If Sarries agree, then fine, if not, then not sure if PRL can force it.

Also, from an interview with Nigel Wray a few years ago, he said that he felt that the salary cap was a bad law and should be got rid of. Goes some way to explain what has happened and why he hasn't issued an apology.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by CitizenSmiff » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:35 pm

-18 now. They'll only need 5 more games to overtake us.

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