Elitism in Rugby

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BFG
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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by BFG » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:00 pm

Baz wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:39 pm
Hardly missing the point! The fact that the pathways are better mapped out is firmly embedded in history. Public schools are where the game originated, and it's still a minority sport in most of Britain. Who do you expect to do the "re-mapping"? There are comments on here about corruption, which is a minor side-issue, and the fact that the routes are "academically-selective"; they are not, they are class-selective, which is a different thing. The only way to change things is from the bottom up, which means the state system embracing rugby. Elitism is a charge that can be leveled at most sports, and for exactly the same reasons.
I think it's a contradiction in terms to say that the game originated in public schools and then that the routes are not academically selective as the required academic standard has to be present to gain entry to a public school.
Rugby isn't class selective, a youngster can gain entry via scholarship, but again the academic potential has to be present.
It leaves behind those youngsters who have not yet developed enough physically and who don't meet the academic standard.

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by Scott1 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:18 pm

Class sellective and academically selective are essentially the same thing. There are exceptions obviously but a family with a few quid are hardly gonna send there kid to an inner city comp are they?!

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by BFG » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:35 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:18 pm
Class sellective and academically selective are essentially the same thing. There are exceptions obviously but a family with a few quid are hardly gonna send there kid to an inner city comp are they?!
They contribute to the same outcomes in the debate about how opportunities are gained.
It's a very British problem and for sports.

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by LE18 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:28 pm

I would have thought that the primary function of State School was to educate the majority of our young in the basics of Maths, English, Science, History, Geography and Religious Studies. If one starts to demand specialist sports be taught, where does it stop? Should squash, archery, bowls etc etc be taught? No, education should come first, specialist sports should not be mandatory, but Fitness should! Clubs exist for special sports, Its impossible and unaffordable to be able satisfy everyone's demands for State education to provide these.

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by ourla » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:42 pm

Whilst we are discussing rugby here there is a general issue as noted in the OP.

We don't want an elitist society. It's unhealthy.
You're either in or you're out

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by ourla » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:45 pm

How we solve is difficult because you have to break the elite's hold which is by definition very strong.

Need a centrist statesperson who is astute and patient.
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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by ourla » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:45 pm

Nobody on the horizon as we speak.
You're either in or you're out

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by Goshengareth » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:09 pm

1. Someone said (I paraphrase) ‘successive socialist govts have discouraged contact sport and as a result schools have sold off playing fields.’ Jeez. Where to begin on correcting that. Pretty much every word is wrong.

2. Private / public schools are not particularly academic. For the vast majority who can afford it, there is a place. Especially nowadays with an excess of places and private schools going to the wall regularly.

3. I would be interested to understand the role of scholarships in changing the balance of the figures. Take the Vunipolas. Both public school educated but not due to academics or money.

4. As another poster said, the priority is not getting our schools to produce rugby players. It’s to ensure the pupils are sufficiently well educated. They have less than a one third of the per capita funding of private schools.

5. Rugby is really not that much of a
Minority sport. Clearly football predominates, but what other sports exceed rugby?

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by JP14 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:29 am

Well it isn’t cricket as that is played mostly in the summer holidays.
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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by Cardiff Tig » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:54 am

Golf, tennis, badminton and boxing are all more popular. Plus competitive swimming and running.

Rugby is very much a minority sport when it comes to participation.

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by BFG » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:12 am

Goshengareth wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:09 pm
1. Someone said (I paraphrase) ‘successive socialist govts have discouraged contact sport and as a result schools have sold off playing fields.’ Jeez. Where to begin on correcting that. Pretty much every word is wrong.

2. Private / public schools are not particularly academic. For the vast majority who can afford it, there is a place. Especially nowadays with an excess of places and private schools going to the wall regularly.

3. I would be interested to understand the role of scholarships in changing the balance of the figures. Take the Vunipolas. Both public school educated but not due to academics or money.


4. As another poster said, the priority is not getting our schools to produce rugby players. It’s to ensure the pupils are sufficiently well educated. They have less than a one third of the per capita funding of private schools.

5. Rugby is really not that much of a
Minority sport. Clearly football predominates, but what other sports exceed rugby?
You highlight part of the rugby issue in those two paragraphs, that is the opportunities to continue to develop are there but only at a set time and place.
You can either 1) buy your way or 2) bulldoze your way.
Given that we are talking about the development of mainly 15/16 year olds for post 16 entry from September to August each year that leaves out two extremely large groups of society in 1) the less well off and 2) the less developed.

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by johnthegriff » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:47 am

In Leicester in the 50's & 60's many Secondary Modern schools played rugby as did Intermediate and Grammar Schools although more were known as soccer schools when the system moved to Comprehensive kids from Primary schools that had had no exposure to rugby naturally chose to play football so the numbers playing our game dropped although the efforts in the clubs introducing mini rugby helped lessen the impact.
Elitism in sport happens, young people are dependent on parents getting them to training and matches, this applies as much with Sunday morning under 12's football, Saturday club tennis, swimming and junior rugby.
I have a grand daughter in state school, a talented swimmer and footballer, at age twelve she had to choose her sport as three training nights plus weekend match for swimming and two training nights plus matches for football ruled out doing both. Now age fifteen she is training three nights and playing matches often some distance away as a footballer, dedicated parents with a little bit of help from Grandad are necessary.
My grandson age ten living in Scotland is apparently a talented goalkeeper, his dad, my son turned down approaches from both Hearts and Celtic as he felt it was too early to dedicate so much time to one sport and it would have meant giving up tennis which he was also good at, recently golf has been introduced with some success. The choices are do you play and enjoy many sports to a reasonable standard but follow a career outside sport or do you at a very young age dedicate yourself to one sport and hope that you will be one of the very few that actually make a career in your game.
As a parent how do you advise your child? You are going to have to support them giving up much of your own time taking them to training watching the and supporting them in matches for their club and more if they get county selection, if you have more than one child and they follow different sports God help you, you will have no time and probably no money to call your own.
Elitism? Yes! if you want to be a successful sportsperson select your parents very carefully.

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by h's dad » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:54 am

ourla wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:42 pm
Whilst we are discussing rugby here there is a general issue as noted in the OP.

We don't want an elitist society. It's unhealthy.
elite
noun
1.
a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society


You might be happy with your surgery carried out by somebody dragged off the street at random but if I was to need a surgeon, I would like to have an elite one. The same goes for pretty much any aspect of life.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by jgriffin » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:23 am

Once again agree 100% with my close namesake, John Griffiths. I'm in the play lots of sports, get really fit, choose later - in rugby that's why some like Thorn have longer careers.
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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by h's dad » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:40 am

jgriffin wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:23 am
Once again agree 100% with my close namesake, John Griffiths. I'm in the play lots of sports, get really fit, choose later - in rugby that's why some like Thorn have longer careers.
Rugby is more a way of really fouling up you body rather than a way of getting fit.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

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