Elitism in Rugby

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LE18
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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by LE18 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:57 pm

fleabane wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:11 pm
“It's a money issue.

Who's going to pay for travel to get the low-income kids to training? “

This is only partly true - they manage to get to football ok!

Surely the desires of inner city kids is to play for their local football team, since that is a prevailing culture, over and above the desire to play for a local, less popular rugby team. There are far more football teams (every pub, local leagues, etc) which can give youngsters a start on the ladder. This is where rugby fails.

The lack of school playing fields following the government sell off some years ago also deprived many of the opportunity to play rugby. You can play full 5 a side footy in the gym, community hall, in the street or wherever. You can’t do that with full contact rugby.

Don’t blame private schools for giving the opportunities to play a range of sports. What is wrong is that the state does not provide the same opportunities for state educated pupils.
[/quote

I don't think fleabane we can ever convince some on here to listen to our reasoning.

If the state schools were funded to provide this "no education" level of sport, who is going to pay for it? Are the parents whose kids go to state schools willing to pay, or is this to be a Government funded scheme for which we are all going to be taxed more? Why are folks so against Private Schools whose parents pay for this facility?
Yes I feel sorry for Genge, he obviously missed out going to a state school, there will always be exceptions to the rule and its also very unfair to heap blame on willing volunteers who have an interest in running a sport, even if you don't like their financial background.
Private schools give more intense skill and Laws of the Game coaching, sometimes starting at 7-8 yrs of age, State schools, many of which only have "None sports" teachers to take games periods, so kids are way behind when they reach secondary/senior school level and that appears to me to follow through.
I never went to a Private School, I went to a State Grammar but I have watched rugby at all levels for very many years and its easy to see the difference, Public v State.
Seems to me the only way to stop this is to become a Markist country, where everyone is equal, I don't think!

PS, Rugby Clubs do a great job, usually once a week for a couple of hours, but some can't afford professional coaches, so have to rely on past players or willing parents to teach those skills mentioned, but does that equate to the Private School level?

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by BFG » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:11 pm

h's dad wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:51 pm
BFG wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:21 am
No science needed, the evidence is in English sporting history.
Do England actually possess the ability to create world class athletes in particular in rugby union, given that since 03 it has been slowly going downhill I'd strongly question that ability!
What's really interesting is that the 03 rugby World Cup winning squad had a decent balance of backgrounds.
Fast forward to 2015 and England couldn't even get out if the group stage at a home World Cup with a squad dominated by early professional academy development and an English game with a much greater percentage of professional players from private school backgrounds than the national percentage.
This would all suggest to me that all is not well in how England develop modern young players.
Dombrandt at Quins is a fine example of what can slip through the academy net.
A plethora of finds in the SW aren't going to suddenly be found as the opportunities aren't available to them as they are to certain other backgrounds, that's the whole point of what Genge is saying.
The results in 2003 and 2015 are both points in time rather than trends, both influenced by the coaching influence and ethos as much as or more than the players.
A decline since 2003 cannot be attributed to private schools or backgrounds as these were generally much more influential before 2003 so, if anything, the reverse should be true.
Re talented athletes in the SW, not every sport is as 'elite' as rugby and people with the attributes ascribed by Genge would flourish in a variety of more welcoming, and probably better paying, sports - a point I tried to make previously but apparently not clearly enough.
I agree that all is not well in how England develop modern young players but I don't find your reasoning for it entirely cogent.
I see the difference between 2003 and 2015 differently, just my opinion but I think it's there to be picked apart.
The 2003 crop came through before the national academy system really took off.
It can be argued that the Tigers academy was much better before the England system took control.
The club now that does what it wants regardless of credits is Sarries and kind of mirrors the Leicester of old.
I see a trend continuing as England U20 have just come fifth at the world championships and Scotland where it's well known to be a similarly selective process have just been relegated from tier 1 at U20 level.
There are many differing factors in play here that trying to avoid a fragmented discussion and fit into one post could take up several pages.
Every individual situation is slightly different but the way the system is set up I do think that lads like Genge, less academic and particularly if a later developer, are the worst hit in representation by all factors.

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by Cardiff Tig » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:23 pm

fleabane wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:11 pm
“It's a money issue.

Who's going to pay for travel to get the low-income kids to training? “

This is only partly true - they manage to get to football ok!

Surely the desires of inner city kids is to play for their local football team, since that is a prevailing culture, over and above the desire to play for a local, less popular rugby team. There are far more football teams (every pub, local leagues, etc) which can give youngsters a start on the ladder. This is where rugby fails.

The lack of school playing fields following the government sell off some years ago also deprived many of the opportunity to play rugby. You can play full 5 a side footy in the gym, community hall, in the street or wherever. You can’t do that with full contact rugby.

Don’t blame private schools for giving the opportunities to play a range of sports. What is wrong is that the state does not provide the same opportunities for state educated pupils.
I completely agree. I was also referring to the fact that to get to your local rugby club is probably more difficult than your local football team. If Genge's mates are as quick as he says they are then they should be going to the athletics track, but there are even less of those than there are rugby clubs (and that's a different discussion entirely)!

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by jgriffin » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:31 pm

Cardiff Tig wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:23 pm
fleabane wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:11 pm
“It's a money issue.

Who's going to pay for travel to get the low-income kids to training? “

This is only partly true - they manage to get to football ok!

Surely the desires of inner city kids is to play for their local football team, since that is a prevailing culture, over and above the desire to play for a local, less popular rugby team. There are far more football teams (every pub, local leagues, etc) which can give youngsters a start on the ladder. This is where rugby fails.

The lack of school playing fields following the government sell off some years ago also deprived many of the opportunity to play rugby. You can play full 5 a side footy in the gym, community hall, in the street or wherever. You can’t do that with full contact rugby.

Don’t blame private schools for giving the opportunities to play a range of sports. What is wrong is that the state does not provide the same opportunities for state educated pupils.
I completely agree. I was also referring to the fact that to get to your local rugby club is probably more difficult than your local football team. If Genge's mates are as quick as he says they are then they should be going to the athletics track, but there are even less of those than there are rugby clubs (and that's a different discussion entirely)!
Actually think it is part of the same discussion. Almost none of the tracks I ran on as a national class runner in the late 60s now exist. Even then I had a 90 minute, 2 bus journey to the best training group in Stretford. Now you need to be in walking distance or have willing parents (no buses).
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LE18
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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by LE18 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:54 pm

So are we Tigers supporters Elitists, after all we are supposedly propping up an elitist game? :smt017

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by biffer » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:44 pm

Most people aren't criticising private schools for running sports, they're criticising state schools for not doing it. When this happens it presents fewer opportunities for kids from poorer backgrounds.

Sport should be part of your upbringing, and school sport should be a significant part of that. And yes, it should be paid from taxes.

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by BFG » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:41 pm

biffer wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:44 pm
Most people aren't criticising private schools for running sports, they're criticising state schools for not doing it. When this happens it presents fewer opportunities for kids from poorer backgrounds.

Sport should be part of your upbringing, and school sport should be a significant part of that. And yes, it should be paid from taxes.
It's bridging the gap that is important so talent can flourish.
Reign in how stupid the private schools go on strength and conditioning and get the state schools doing a bit more.
The age grade international process only encourages it more, world rugby and the unions are trying to create a business model on development.
The best years of kids lives spent in the gym, it's just so wrong!
By their mid-twenties I think that you can see the boredom in many, probably by 28 most have been doing the same routine for half of their lives.
That isn't healthy in my opinion.

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by jgriffin » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:26 pm

BFG wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:41 pm
biffer wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:44 pm
Most people aren't criticising private schools for running sports, they're criticising state schools for not doing it. When this happens it presents fewer opportunities for kids from poorer backgrounds.

Sport should be part of your upbringing, and school sport should be a significant part of that. And yes, it should be paid from taxes.
It's bridging the gap that is important so talent can flourish.
Reign in how stupid the private schools go on strength and conditioning and get the state schools doing a bit more.
The age grade international process only encourages it more, world rugby and the unions are trying to create a business model on development.
The best years of kids lives spent in the gym, it's just so wrong!
By their mid-twenties I think that you can see the boredom in many, probably by 28 most have been doing the same routine for half of their lives.
That isn't healthy in my opinion.
Agree completely. when you look at some of the most talented in rugby, they play several sports and are both highly skilled and sport-savvy (football/cricket/basketball/athletic and even dancing). Most Kiwis have two or more sports. When I worked at a school with a rugby focus (now diminished) the complaint from staff was that other schools seemed to pick/select baby monsters in a batter-em game plan which trumped skill-focused coaching, in the main. Kids are hitting the weights in independent school or facilities with no scruples, and using banned performance drugs (epidemic in Wales and probably similar here). TBH if you haven't been picked or connected-up by the time you're 17, that's it. There are exceptions, but exceptions they remain.
Rugby itself is not an elitist sport, indeed it is massively inclusive in general. The higher reaches are elitist, alas. This is also true of many other sports.
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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by fleabane » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:11 pm

Biffer wrote, and I agree:

“Sport should be part of your upbringing, and school sport should be a significant part of that. And yes, it should be paid from taxes.”

It is just a pity that private and grammar school pupils are accused of being elitist! The fault lies with the state.

Think about that when you vote!
Valhalla I am coming!

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by jgriffin » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:03 pm

fleabane wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:11 pm
Biffer wrote, and I agree:

“Sport should be part of your upbringing, and school sport should be a significant part of that. And yes, it should be paid from taxes.”

It is just a pity that private and grammar school pupils are accused of being elitist! The fault lies with the state.

Think about that when you vote!
For better state school facilities, if there are any left by then.
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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by Baz » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:04 pm

The word "elitism" is a complete red-herring! Fleabane is the only one who has made a pertinent comment. If it were not for the fact that grammar/public schools play rugby, the game wouldn't exist! Coaches/clubs/etc would happily take any good players, whatever their backgrounds. Successive socialist governments (I'm in my 70's, so I can go back a bit) have discouraged contact sports as "too dangerous", and put so little stress on physical exercise that most state schools have sold off their playing fields.
Don't blame grammar/private schools for supplying most of the players we love to watch; blame the state system for not providing enough! The old saw about football being the opiate of the masses (apologies to Karl Marx) is true. Ellis' preference for rugby puts him, sadly, in a minority. As for feeling guilty about supporting an elitist game, what tosh! If you love the game, just enjoy it, and don't get sidetracked by players' backgrounds.

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by Scott1 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:21 pm

Baz wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:04 pm
The word "elitism" is a complete red-herring! Fleabane is the only one who has made a pertinent comment. If it were not for the fact that grammar/public schools play rugby, the game wouldn't exist! Coaches/clubs/etc would happily take any good players, whatever their backgrounds. Successive socialist governments (I'm in my 70's, so I can go back a bit) have discouraged contact sports as "too dangerous", and put so little stress on physical exercise that most state schools have sold off their playing fields.
Don't blame grammar/private schools for supplying most of the players we love to watch; blame the state system for not providing enough! The old saw about football being the opiate of the masses (apologies to Karl Marx) is true. Ellis' preference for rugby puts him, sadly, in a minority. As for feeling guilty about supporting an elitist game, what tosh! If you love the game, just enjoy it, and don't get sidetracked by players' backgrounds.
Completely missing the point! AGAIN! No one's moaning about where the players come from,the argument is that the pathways are better mapped out and supported for such players. The legup from inner city is next to none existant,King Edward Grammar for example was/is in the middle of Aston in Birmingham,would they try and use the inner city schools as a feeder for potential players? Not a chance!

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by Baz » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:39 pm

Hardly missing the point! The fact that the pathways are better mapped out is firmly embedded in history. Public schools are where the game originated, and it's still a minority sport in most of Britain. Who do you expect to do the "re-mapping"? There are comments on here about corruption, which is a minor side-issue, and the fact that the routes are "academically-selective"; they are not, they are class-selective, which is a different thing. The only way to change things is from the bottom up, which means the state system embracing rugby. Elitism is a charge that can be leveled at most sports, and for exactly the same reasons.

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by biffer » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:37 pm

I wonder if any of the commenters on here went to private schools.

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Re: Elitism in Rugby

Post by JP14 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:53 pm

biffer wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:37 pm
I wonder if any of the commenters on here went to private schools.
From my experience quite a majority.
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