Worcester vs Tigers

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drc_007
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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by drc_007 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:36 am

mol2 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:33 am
There were numerous examples on the TV during the game of White arranging the ball with his foot at the back of the rucks - paying no attention to his players or what was in front of him. He almost had to be told on each and every occasion to use it.

What's the point of runners making a move when it is clear and evident that the scum half is not going to deliver the ball?

Every ruck went from 2 or 3 Tigers forwards being tied in to at least 6 before White would play the ball. So who's left to attack an opposition line that has formed and has 3 more forwards in it than the attacking side because the scum half has taken so long to look up let alone consider the options that they no longer exist.
That had to be a predetermined "tactic" or I'm sure it would have been changed during the match.

wellstiger
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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by wellstiger » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:48 am

Kicking poorly from rucks is not just a Tigers failed ploy, but is evident throughout Prem and even some International games.
Used sparingly and effectively can be a great tool to crack defenses.
However like most aspects of life it has become a fad that everyone must try.
Get back to passing and running from a ruck with quick ball. Once one team does it to effect we will have a new old fad. :smt038

wellstiger
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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by wellstiger » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:51 am

Before i get slated I'll add, that getting rid of a ball into touch or clearing from your own 10m is effective.Providing it's not getting into advancing hands of the opposition. :smt038

Scott1
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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by Scott1 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:54 am

Spot on Wells,I'll get slated for this too probably but even though he's very good at what he does Connor Murray bores me to tears at times,scripted rugby can be awful. But then I see Toulouse score a try from their own 22 and the world is alright again! :smt002

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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by kend » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:26 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:54 am
Spot on Wells,I'll get slated for this too probably but even though he's very good at what he does Connor Murray bores me to tears at times,scripted rugby can be awful. But then I see Toulouse score a try from their own 22 and the world is alright again! :smt002
No slating, but I am interested in your thinking. The Toulousain sometimes do run from their 22, but most of the time they do the pragmatic thing and execute their exit strategy. When they do so it's because they have broken the defence or they are desperate. A Tigers side with Ford, Veainu, May and Holmes on the pitch might also be able to go 80 metres in the same circumstances, but not the one playing on Sunday. Chucking the ball around in your own 22 against a set defence is tactical madness, because the chance of error/turnover is much too high.

So you box kick as an exit strategy or to 'play the game in the right areas of the field'. You might go through a couple of phases to get into a better position for the kick. But in those cases speed isn't the point or even desirable. What is necessary is to ensure phase possession in a high risk area of the pitch, to get your chaser(s) in position (if that is your strategy) or the defence ready to move and pressure possession. Even if the SH box kicking is going really well, you are never going to hit 100% accuracy, so you want your defence ready. Getting the ball off the field is only really important in a scramble, when a broken field runner could be a real danger against a broken defence. Otherwise you trust your defensive system.

At least that's my understanding of the 'accepted coaching wisdom'. Whether a Tigers side denuded of it's 6N internationals is capable of implementing it is another matter altogether.......

RagingBull
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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by RagingBull » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:38 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:54 am
Spot on Wells,I'll get slated for this too probably but even though he's very good at what he does Connor Murray bores me to tears at times,scripted rugby can be awful. But then I see Toulouse score a try from their own 22 and the world is alright again! :smt002
Where did Holmes get the ball to score his try? :smt002

AngusMcCoatup
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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by AngusMcCoatup » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:49 pm

BigDan50 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:07 am
Here we go again blaming the ref and TMO for our loss, to many one eyed posters on here.
We lost because we were not good enough as a team and our coaching team is not to the standard required.
I was not blaming the Referee for the loss, nor am I a one eyed poster! However CMK 's regular use of the TMO compared with the senior Referees is an indication that he is unsure of his decision making and the laws.
Tigers have had some bad decisions against us from the TMO's eg. Jamie Roberts @ Bath with a double move but David Rose has given at least two bad verdicts against Tigers this season, Gloucester and the White try on Sunday. Flats too thought it was a try. The TMO's are often "retired early" referees and there appears to be inconsistent decisions and that is why I questioned his ability. :smt023
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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by Coleshillad » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:09 pm

wellstiger wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:48 am
Kicking poorly from rucks is not just a Tigers failed ploy, but is evident throughout Prem and even some International games.
Used sparingly and effectively can be a great tool to crack defenses.
However like most aspects of life it has become a fad that everyone must try.
Get back to passing and running from a ruck with quick ball. Once one team does it to effect we will have a new old fad. :smt038
There's nothing wrong with defensive kicking, or kicking with a view to attack, from whichever part of the field. Or, keeping it tight with the fat boys, or opening it up wide. Every breakdown, scrum, lineout, is going to be different. What strikes me is the continued use of a tactic that isn't working. Why can't half backs play what's in front of them. Quick ball is very important, but so is the ability to use whatever ball is available, effectively. That is not happening with the Tigers.

Scott1
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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by Scott1 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:18 pm

Is it the players though Coleshilad or are they playing to orders? England were the same Saturday.

Coleshillad
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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by Coleshillad » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:40 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:18 pm
Is it the players though Coleshilad or are they playing to orders? England were the same Saturday.
I don't know the answer to that. However, the players at this level have been around the block a few times. They don't get to this position without knowing what they're doing. Is it '"over coaching", coaches not trusting their players, or, thinking they know better. Either way, in my humble opinion, its something both the Tigers, and the national side ought to think about

G.K
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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by G.K » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:47 pm

JP14 wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:42 pm
I think we need to just try and get this season over and done with as quickly as possible, ...
Well since Tigers are not in any play offs it will be over earlier than it used to be...
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by Coleshillad » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:07 am

Scott1 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:18 pm
Is it the players though Coleshilad or are they playing to orders? England were the same Saturday.
Just had a thought. 2003. World cup. When you look at the final few phases, the very last minute or so. I think it was good captaincy, and the team playing what was in front of them on the field that won it. Taking nothing away from Sir Clive, because he played his part in getting them there, but it was individual skills and a last minute strategy, without the coach, that got the team there. I'm sure we've both seen similar scenarios. I hope you get my point.

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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by DingDong » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:00 am

AngusMcCoatup wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:49 pm
BigDan50 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:07 am
Here we go again blaming the ref and TMO for our loss, to many one eyed posters on here.
We lost because we were not good enough as a team and our coaching team is not to the standard required.
I was not blaming the Referee for the loss, nor am I a one eyed poster! However CMK 's regular use of the TMO compared with the senior Referees is an indication that he is unsure of his decision making and the laws.
Tigers have had some bad decisions against us from the TMO's eg. Jamie Roberts @ Bath with a double move but David Rose has given at least two bad verdicts against Tigers this season, Gloucester and the White try on Sunday. Flats too thought it was a try. The TMO's are often "retired early" referees and there appears to be inconsistent decisions and that is why I questioned his ability. :smt023
You seem to think the game is perfect and that all decisions ought to be the right one, but they are human, they don't see everything, they interpret as you do, and in the case of CMK he definitely knows his laws and doesn't use the TMO any more or less than most other refs.

Listen to the likes of Rob Baxter post match when a decision goes against Chiefs, his pragmatic approach is an example to everyone about the reality of the game. He says harsh/wrong decisions in a match go both ways, also refs/TMO's don't decide matches, the problem is that the players shouldn't put themselves in that position in the first place with their own poor decisions/performance. That balanced view is coming from one of the most successful coaches in recent years, therefore worthy of some credibility I think!

ellis9
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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by ellis9 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:01 am

Coleshillad wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:07 am
Scott1 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:18 pm
Is it the players though Coleshilad or are they playing to orders? England were the same Saturday.
Just had a thought. 2003. World cup. When you look at the final few phases, the very last minute or so. I think it was good captaincy, and the team playing what was in front of them on the field that won it. Taking nothing away from Sir Clive, because he played his part in getting them there, but it was individual skills and a last minute strategy, without the coach, that got the team there. I'm sure we've both seen similar scenarios. I hope you get my point.
Actually, I think they practiced that scenario.

Scott1
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Re: Worcester vs Tigers

Post by Scott1 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:23 am

Bit of both Coleshilad,SCW was a massive fan of dropgoals and always taking any points when available but it was MJ idea in game to go that extra phase and create a less difficult kick.

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