Proof if proof were needed

[Scott1]

Thanks HD!

[Dangerous4]

There is nothing in that which I and any other supporter has not seen
The rules and procedures are no different to the Inland revenue or any other regulatory authority.
We know it is supposed to be properly policed and the procedures laid down for overseeing them.
Yet breaches occur all the time. The less the procedures are followed the more they are avoided and just
like tax avoidance, there are plenty of clever who know how to do it.
Looking at their squad strength and depth they are clearly getting round the cap.
They also carry a massive continuing deficit. Yet have a core support of around 7,000.

The "air pianos" don't really perform magic you know.

Absolutely correct. Is there any poster who believes Sarries can maintain a squad oozing international player's, who can do so within the salary cap? Logic says that this cannot be done. Never in a million years.

[Cardiff Tig]

We used to have a starting XV and bench packed full of internationals. I very much doubt that Sarries are breaching the cap. Playing for a winning team, with a great work ethic and off-field atmosphere means they can offer less than we could for the same players.

Where have you been?
https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest- ... npunished/

As ourla stated, I'm not referring to the historical breaches from 4/5 years ago.

The cap has been significantly increased since then. Plus factor in the home grown English talent, and the rest of the credits and there won't be a significant breach IMO.

[Cardiff Tig]

Plus if you look at the 23s, none of the Sarries team will be attracting massive wages. I would bet that Ben Youngs and Manu are on significantly more than Wigglesworth and Barrett.

[h's dad]

Quins have some quality players in their squad but when you consider that they (marginally and accidentally) breached the cap last season, it makes you wonder how, or if, some other teams, no matter what their attractions, manage to stay anywhere close to the limits.

[h's dad]

Plus if you look at the 23s, none of the Sarries team will be attracting massive wages. I would bet that Ben Youngs and Manu are on significantly more than Wigglesworth and Barrett.

I bet you that Barrett has more impact on Saracen's cap that Manu does on Tigers'.

[Scott1]

Barritt on more than Manu?! No chance!!!

[Crofty]

Barritt on more than Manu?! No chance!!!

Manu is one of our Marquee players, his wages don't count to the cap...

[RagingBull]

Correct me if I'm wrong too but weren't we one of the clubs that voted AGAINST an investigation?

I believe Tigers voted to suspend the investigation, along with everybody else with the honourable exceptions of Wasps and Harlequins.

Would ironically are so far the only known two teams to be fined for Salary cap breaches

[Scott1]

Oh I see what you mean,sorry.

[ellis9]

Barritt on more than Manu?! No chance!!!

Manu is one of our Marquee players, his wages don't count to the cap...

I'm not sure he is. Toomua is one and I think Cole is the other.

[Crumblies]

So everything is all open and above board?

Come on guys apply some logic!

Right now we are trying desperately to hang on to Manu Tuilagi while being told we are limited by the cap. And it won't be long before we are trying to hang on to Ellis Genge. As soon as one of our star players contract is up for renewal we are ripe for the picking by any rich French super 14 side, plus Saracens.

Wonder how often Billy Vunipola, Maro Itoje, Owen Farell, Jamie George, Mako Vunipola etc have attracted similar interest and if not why not?

[ABClub]

I've had a spare hour in a train station so thought I'd do a purely speculative head-to-head. Early disclosure:

1. I admit that I do find the squad that Sarries have put together suspicious with regards to the cap.

2. Getting around the cap is harder than many think. Clearly it happens but it isn't a simple case of free cars, holidays, school tuition for kids, etc which count towards the cap and is enforced these days.

3. Whilst there are several things (and Calum Clark) to dislike at Sarries there are legitimate ways they will save money on wages. Namely;
- The chance to win trophies draws players in
- Academy grads in a winning team are more likely to stay near home for lower wages
- England payments for the core of their squad represents huge annual earnings for many key players

Marquees
Toomua and Manu vs Burger and Farrell

Outside the cap.

Hookers
Youngs, TPN, Kerr, Stevens, McMillan vs George, Tolofua, Spurling, Woolstencroft, Gray

Overall that will be similar in wages but wouldn't be surprised if Tigers were spending slightly more to be honest. OTY will be on a big wage with when he last signed and TPN did not come cheap. Tolofua on the other hand signed after slipping down the order in France.

Props

Genge, Cole, Bateman, Cortes, Feao, Gigena, Heyes vs Mako, Koch, Figallo, Barrington, Lamositele, Thompson-Stringer

Ma'afu and Judge are injury dispensation so I've left both out respectively.

Those players will again be comparable in wages overall. Genge and Cole will be on similar wages to Mako and Koch. Sarries signed Figallo out of retirement as a bargain bucket purchase that came good. Their squad players in Barrington, Lamositele and Thompson-Stringer all joined young and were brought through by the club so likely won't cost much.

Second row
Spencer, Kitchener, Fitzgerald, Williams, Wells vs Itoje, Kruis, Skelton, Isiekwe, Day

This is where the difference in squads stands out and you'd pray Sarries are paying more. Itoje, Kruis and Isiekwe all get academy credits though - with Kpoku coming through as well Sarries have done exceptionally well at bringing through locks. For Tigers on the other hand we have 3 names in that list who while good players are rumoured to be significantly over payed for what they offer.

Back row

Kalamafoni, BOC, Denton, Thopson, Evans, Mapapalangi vs Billy Vunipola, Earl, Rhodes, Wray, Vailanu, Rhodes, Clark

Sarries should be spending more here due to Billy Vunipola. Outside of that there has again been shrewd work by Sarries though. Earl is great development by Sarries, a potential star. Rhodes was signed having bounced around Super Rugby sides to little acclaim. Vailanu arrived very raw and has improved considerably (as opposed to Papa). Wray is similar to Barrington in that he's been there a long time, won't be payed big wages but plays his role very well.

Scrum halves
Youngs, Harrison, White vs Wigglesworth, Spencer, White, Taylor

Tigers probably spend more here due to YBYs significant wages. Wigglesworth joined they in 2010 and has improved considerably in their systems but likely isn't payed big money.

Fly halves
G Ford, J Ford vs Lozowski, Malins

Tigers will be spending more here due to George and Farrell in the second marquee spot for Sarries. Lozowski and Malins are also very useful squad players due to their versatility.

Centres
Eastmond, Owen, Smith, Tait, Thacker vs Barritt, Bosch, Taylor, Tompkins, Hakalo

With Manu and Toomua in the marquee spots Sarries clearly use a lot more cap here. Barritt (settled at Sarries) and Taylor (not a fashionable player and Edinburgh/Glasgow don't pay big wages) are rumoured to be payed less than you'd guess. Bosch is paid a lot though and Daly is stepping into that wage next season.

Back three
Veainu, May, Thompstone, Holmes, Worth vs Goode, Williams, Lewington, Maitland, Strettle, Gallagher, Segun

Veainu and May are very well paid but there's a lot of big earners there for Sarries.

[ourla]

Nearer three. What do you think has changed?

The report is dated September 8, 2015 and follows a "nine-month investigation" and the investigation will be into historical breaches - so takes you way back into 2014.

What has changed? Well for a start, I suspect part of the cover was done on the basis you can't keep doing it. The salary cap has also been substantially increased.

There have been several publicised minor technical breaches since but no serious allegations of major breaches.

Do you really think all the fiddles stopped the moment the investigation started?
And the investigation was shelved largely because of blustering and threats from the accused parties. Absolutely no contrition or commitment not to reoffend.
If you think it has all gone away you are free to adhere to that opinion.

I've no idea what goes on behind close doors and how the Prem self police. And neither do you.

What I do know is that since that investigation I've heard no complaints from clubs or their owners, nor read about any club (aside from minor technical) breaching the cap in the press or elsewhere.

And we are part of that secret society anyhow.

[ourla]

There is nothing in that which I and any other supporter has not seen
The rules and procedures are no different to the Inland revenue or any other regulatory authority.
We know it is supposed to be properly policed and the procedures laid down for overseeing them.
Yet breaches occur all the time. The less the procedures are followed the more they are avoided and just
like tax avoidance, there are plenty of clever who know how to do it.
Looking at their squad strength and depth they are clearly getting round the cap.
They also carry a massive continuing deficit. Yet have a core support of around 7,000.

The "air pianos" don't really perform magic you know.

Absolutely correct. Is there any poster who believes Sarries can maintain a squad oozing international player's, who can do so within the salary cap? Logic says that this cannot be done. Never in a million years.

Please list their squad and what you think they are being paid and then list ours.