Quins must win 23

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Traveller
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by Traveller » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:15 am

tigerssteve wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:01 am
Traveller wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:20 pm
You disagree but then don't point out the conclusions! What follows has absolutely nothing to do with the stats quoted. I agree totally with your conclusions, just not the way you arrived at them. My maths teacher said you should always show your workings.
Sorry. I don't quite understand the antagonism. I am sure we are both Tigers fans, who want the club and the team to thrive. I didn't think there was anything controversial in the stats I was highlighting. It simply reflects the scale of underperformance of the team, the woeful coaching and the lousy decision making at Board level.
No antagonism intended, merely disagree with your premise. Agree underperforming. Agree lousy decision making. Agree woeful coaching. I just don't feel that the stats used in any way make those points. How does numbers of caps correlate to any of those? How does average age? Just trying to understand your logic is all.
[/quote]
All I was trying to highlight, was the stats was that Tigers having significantly more (past) and current international experience across the team. IF the side was well coached, the Quins game should be a banker. Yet a relatively inexperienced Quins side, which went through a coaching clear out in the summer, will start strong favourites. That is the scale of the problem which the board have overseen. I hope though, that we do win.

jgriffin
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by jgriffin » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:48 am

I think it would only take a defensive system the scale of Blake's catenaccio plus little boosts like the return of Denton to see us winning a lot of games. I do subscribe to the theory of Board neglect since 2012 and would add that those Board members with responsibility for team affairs (and sacking Cockers :smt003 ) should be relieved of their duties.
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strawclearer
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by strawclearer » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:49 am

Robespierre wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:04 am
strawclearer wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:53 pm
Robespierre wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:28 pm
Good news, boys and girls! I’m going to be at the Quins’ game, and the previous game I went to was the win against Llanelli Scarlets! A good omen to cling on to!
As you say - a good omen!

I'm pleased to say that SC will be in the Crumbie Stand - along with a number of little helpers all cheering the boys on! SC is a portly, jolly fellow who's partial to gin and very good at spending other people's money... :smt114
So if we hear some raucous singing and cheering (brought on by the gin) and turn around from our position on the terrace, we’ll clearly see SC and fellow choristers already in Christmas spirit!
Well - obviously I can't speak for the great man but, yes, I think that pretty much sums up his plans!
Happy days clearing straw from the pitch before the Baa-Baas games! KBO
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Scuttle
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by Scuttle » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:57 am

strawclearer wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:49 am
Robespierre wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:04 am
strawclearer wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:53 pm

As you say - a good omen!
8
I'm pleased to say that SC will be in the Crumbie Stand - along with a number of little helpers all cheering the boys on! SC is a portly, jolly fellow who's partial to gin and very good at spending other people's money... :smt114
So if we hear some raucous singing and cheering (brought on by the gin) and turn around from our position on the terrace, we’ll clearly see SC and fellow choristers already in Christmas spirit!
Well - obviously I can't speak for the great man but, yes, I think that pretty much sums up his plans!
As the Kiwis would say, having a ginuinely good time. Sorry!
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tigerssteve
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by tigerssteve » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:02 am

jgriffin wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:48 am
I think it would only take a defensive system the scale of Blake's catenaccio plus little boosts like the return of Denton to see us winning a lot of games. I do subscribe to the theory of Board neglect since 2012 and would add that those Board members with responsibility for team affairs (and sacking Cockers :smt003 ) should be relieved of their duties.

I only wish that your tag was true. It seems ages since we've played with 15 and I firmly believe that if we had been outdoors on grass in Paris we'd have come away with more than the one point. Other than that, I agree.😊😊

tigerssteve
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by tigerssteve » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:04 am

Traveller wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:15 am
tigerssteve wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:01 am
Traveller wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:20 pm
You disagree but then don't point out the conclusions! What follows has absolutely nothing to do with the stats quoted. I agree totally with your conclusions, just not the way you arrived at them. My maths teacher said you should always show your workings.
Sorry. I don't quite understand the antagonism. I am sure we are both Tigers fans, who want the club and the team to thrive. I didn't think there was anything controversial in the stats I was highlighting. It simply reflects the scale of underperformance of the team, the woeful coaching and the lousy decision making at Board level.
No antagonism intended, merely disagree with your premise. Agree underperforming. Agree lousy decision making. Agree woeful coaching. I just don't feel that the stats used in any way make those points. How does numbers of caps correlate to any of those? How does average age? Just trying to understand your logic is all.
All I was trying to highlight, was the stats was that Tigers having significantly more (past) and current international experience across the team. IF the side was well coached, the Quins game should be a banker. Yet a relatively inexperienced Quins side, which went through a coaching clear out in the summer, will start strong favourites. That is the scale of the problem which the board have overseen. I hope though, that we do win.
[/quote]

I'm with you! Exeter one week, Treviso the next. Let's hope for a repeat of Treviso not Exeter!

mol2
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by mol2 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:38 pm

I'm not sure the problem is the injury to Denton.

The existing back row players O'Connor, Kalamafoni and Thompston are good enough and probably as good as he is as individuals.

We just aren't a team and haven't been for several years.

Tiglon
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by Tiglon » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:05 pm

mol2 wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:38 pm
I'm not sure the problem is the injury to Denton.

The existing back row players O'Connor, Kalamafoni and Thompston are good enough and probably as good as he is as individuals.

We just aren't a team and haven't been for several years.
That back row seems decent until you compare it to the other back rows in the Premiership. Kalamafoni particularly, works hard but where would you rank him against his peers?

Is he better than any of these:

Faletau
Vunipola
Simmonds
Hughes
Morgan
Luamanu
Nagusa
Brussow
Strauss

It's fine saying X is a good player, but that's not good enough if almost everyone else has better.

RagingBull
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by RagingBull » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:06 pm

Luamanu
Nagusa
Brussow
Strauss

Haven't exactly shown much this season IMO.

Tiglon
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by Tiglon » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:08 pm

RagingBull wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:06 pm
Luamanu
Nagusa
Brussow
Strauss

Haven't exactly shown much this season IMO.
Assuming no arguments there - that still makes 5 better number 8's in the Premiership. Is 6th best in the league good enough?

ourla
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by ourla » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:01 pm

Tiglon wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:05 pm
mol2 wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:38 pm
I'm not sure the problem is the injury to Denton.

The existing back row players O'Connor, Kalamafoni and Thompston are good enough and probably as good as he is as individuals.

We just aren't a team and haven't been for several years.
That back row seems decent until you compare it to the other back rows in the Premiership. Kalamafoni particularly, works hard but where would you rank him against his peers?

Is he better than any of these:

Faletau
Vunipola
Simmonds
Hughes
Morgan
Luamanu
Nagusa
Brussow
Strauss

It's fine saying X is a good player, but that's not good enough if almost everyone else has better.
I doubt most Tigers fans have seen enough of those to say. They'll have certainly seen a lot more of Kalamafoni.

Vunipola and Faletau are the two from the list that stand out for me based on their career form. After that Kalamafoni stands up well against the rest IMO. But that's without doing a full study looking at video tape for hours on end.
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LE18
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by LE18 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:06 pm

I don't really see the main problem as the back row, its in the centres where the opposition just run straight through us. One other fault I see is an individual charging up to make the tackle, being side stepped then setting off straight down the middle with no one bringing him down. Problem is definitely our defense and the failure to make the tackle! Are our centres holding back, afraid of getting hurt and spoiling their International chances? Makes you wonder! Any way, better watch out, Mike Brown is back to his very best, as he says in the DT.

Tiglon
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by Tiglon » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:12 pm

Tigers fans would need to watch hours of video to have an idea as to whether Sam Simmonds, Nathan Hughes or Ben Morgan might be better than Kalamafoni?

Fair enough!

Defence is why we are so low down in the league, clearly, and that is in large part down to the centres - but it isn't just them missing tackles or leaving huge gaps. However, we've also scored fewer points than all but one of the teams above us, so the problems don't end with defence.

LE18
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by LE18 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:16 pm

Tiglon wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:12 pm
Tigers fans would need to watch hours of video to have an idea as to whether Sam Simmonds, Nathan Hughes or Ben Morgan might be better than Kalamafoni?

Fair enough!

Defence is why we are so low down in the league, clearly, and that is in large part down to the centres - but it isn't just them missing tackles or leaving huge gaps. However, we've also scored fewer points than all but one of the teams above us, so the problems don't end with defence.
They certainly don't end there, but cut out some of those tries and the points against might just turn losses into wins.

Tiglon
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Re: Quins must win 23

Post by Tiglon » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:26 pm

LE18 wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:16 pm
Tiglon wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:12 pm
Tigers fans would need to watch hours of video to have an idea as to whether Sam Simmonds, Nathan Hughes or Ben Morgan might be better than Kalamafoni?

Fair enough!

Defence is why we are so low down in the league, clearly, and that is in large part down to the centres - but it isn't just them missing tackles or leaving huge gaps. However, we've also scored fewer points than all but one of the teams above us, so the problems don't end with defence.
They certainly don't end there, but cut out some of those tries and the points against might just turn losses into wins.
Of course. But let's not be naive enough to think that the problems are as simple as that.

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