Tour to SA

[Leicestertinytiger]

Just look at the quality in this link, the quality that missed out and I could name another squad from this period that in my opinion were better than the current crop.
http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/48147.html
Proper rugby players!
Enough said!

So true, look at players left out! Plus two quality backrows to choose from, both class. Whereas these days we can barely put together one decent backrow.

[JP14]

Groan.

[G.K]

Just look at the quality in this link, the quality that missed out and I could name another squad from this period that in my opinion were better than the current crop.
http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/48147.html
Proper rugby players!
Enough said!

Yes but if Trojan Horse Eddie recalls Harrison then England will be able to put out an all kiwi back row, England will be unbeatable then won't they? Even Woodentop couldn't do that.

[BFG]

Just look at the quality in this link, the quality that missed out and I could name another squad from this period that in my opinion were better than the current crop.
http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/48147.html
Proper rugby players!
Enough said!

Yes but if Trojan Horse Eddie recalls Harrison then England will be able to put out an all kiwi back row, England will be unbeatable then won't they? Even Woodentop couldn't do that.

Won't see a proper England team under a proper English coach for several years after the money runs out, and it will as they are performing a great re-enactment of Brewster's Millions!

[JP14]

Ok then BFG so what is to you, a proper English XV?

[BFG]

Ok then BFG so what is to you, a proper English XV?

I would've thought that is self explanatory, you're as English as you feel just as with any other nationality.
Granted it's not all about birthplace these days as the world is a smaller place than it once was but from an English perspective and from the outside looking in it appears to be quite fake seeing things such as Samoan and Tongan heritage supported by England players, celebrate your heritage that's fine, but support it no, there is only one team to support and that is home.
Also players of New Zealand heritage recommended by the skipper who is from New Zealand is questionable in my opinion.
The current squad seems to be about welcoming new faces on the say so of the coach and skipper etc rather than new faces automatically fitting in through the common cause which is their Englishness.
When your coach is an Aussie and the skipper in from New Zealand then what does it really mean to represent England, I think it's taking away a big part of what it means to play for your country.
At the end of it all we really have no idea how good England actually are because many of them simply aren't English.

[JP14]

I was asking you to name an English XV by the way, I did get what you were saying in the 1st place.

[teds]

At least 7/8 truly world class players there BFG!

Care to name them?

[Rugbyflanker]

Vickery,Johnson,Hill,Back,Dalaglio,Dawson,Wilkinson,Greenwood,Robinson,Cohen. I can easily find 7 out of those.

[teds]

Vickery,Johnson,Hill,Back,Dalaglio,Dawson,Wilkinson,Greenwood,Robinson,Cohen. I can easily find 7 out of those.

But not everyone would agree. For me, I’d give you Johnson, Hill, Wilkinson and Robinson. Only four really. I don’t think any of the rest would have got into any other international team. Ok Dangly into Italy, although he was no Parisse

IMHO, you could argue Wilkinson and Hill were a class above, but apart from that the individuals today are pretty much as good, some better.

What the old England did have was two things that are now missing.
1. leadership
2. balance how many games did Back, Dangly and Hill play together.?

And Vickery? Really?

[Rugbyflanker]

Vickery at one stage was a very good TH,his career was somewhat tarnished by some illegal scrummaging by the Beast on the Lion's tour which a lot of people seem to only remember about him.Was there a better technical scrummaging LH than Woodman in the world at that time either? And although his light only burnt bright for a short time before completely falling off a cliff,Cohen was electric for a while. Greenwood was definitely world-class too.

[teds]

Vickery at one stage was a very good TH,his career was somewhat tarnished by some illegal scrummaging by the Beast on the Lion's tour which a lot of people seem to only remember about him.Was there a better technical scrummaging LH than Woodman in the world at that time either? And although his light only burnt bright for a short time before completely falling off a cliff,Cohen was electric for a while. Greenwood was definitely world-class too.

Cohen was a very good player and a top bloke but given a choice of May or Splash he wouldn’t have had a look in. Vickery looked good in those days but even at his best would be a backup to Cole these days, FWIW my recollection is that Vickery’s rep was mostly tarnished after he moved to Wasps, and started faking injuries.

I was going to mention a Woodman - far better claim than Vickery, a technically very good prop, but not really World class. Genge and even Mako are better players. You are right though, his time at the top was surprisingly short.

Greenwood now is more interesting. Certainly an intelligent player. Was he world class? Let’s be honest, he didn’t really look it outside of a dominant England team so probably not. Did you watch him at Quins, then at Tigers then at Quins? You look at Toomua and you see a genuine world class centre. Sorry but Shaggy never looked that good.

So my view is it’s not just about the individuals. England’s current problems are today with a lack of leadership and balance. This comes from selection, coaching and preparation. All of which the current regime have been struggling with.

[drc_007]

I'm not convinced that trying to compare players from different eras is wise. The game, laws, training, nutrition etc are all different. You can only really compare within an era.

The England world cup winning pack was probably the best in world rugby at the time, whether that makes them all world class players is a different discussion.

On the subject of Greenwood I'm heard Wilkinson comment on a number of occasions that Greenwood did much of the decision making in play and called out the moves for Wilkinson to implement. Certainly seemed to bring out the best from the players around him.

[jgriffin]

The problem with the England team is the misfit between the top divisions and the country side. We simply do not have a truly integrated and holistic progressive system (unlike NZ to some extent), and even with the best will in the world England does not see all the truly gifted and potentially world class players - a point that has been rehearsed and agonised over since I came on this forum just under a decade ago. Many who contribute can point to talent criminally ignored; I don;t wish to go back into that bearpit of a debate, but IMO unless we have an English manager who isn't one of the OB set (Deano, maybe Baxter, springs to mind), then we will always have weaknesses that necessitate parachute fixes.

[mol2]

Woodman was a class act and perhaps forgotten about because his career was cut short by injury.

The world cup winning side was a side mad up of highly talented individuals playing as a team. When all the players are that good it is not surprising individuals stand out less than when part of a weaker team.

Flashy and talented are not synonymous.