Tour to SA

[mol2]

A few questions have been answered.
Mako isn't up to it. Still time for Genge to take his chance.

The back up to Cole at tight head is a concern - clearly Sinckler isn't a starting option. Williams looked ok but this is not a great SA scrummaging outfit.

Curry looks the part at 7 and still only 20.

Itoje and Launchbury are the locks (not sure why Itoje has taken flak given he looked one of the few England players willing to get stuck in when the going got tough.) Lawes may to the odd spectacular hit but hasn't the power in the engine room.

Is the best fly half really Cipriani. One might be forgiven for thinking he was Stuart Barnes' love child but one good kick that Ford or Farrell would have done (as we saw at Tigers in this season) but that doesn't mean we should overlook the weak missed tackle in the run up to the SA try. I think they should play Farrell at fly half with Daly and Manu in the centres.
Ford has played himself out of contention. Solid technique but doesn't stop a player in the tackle - essentially gets run over - hangs on but doesn't down his man. Forces England to defend to narrow only to be exposed out wide.

Without a doubt Jonny May was Englands' best player and has the pace to unlock rush defences - something England have lacked since Dan Luger. His smart defensive play has to be credited. Not sure why the commentators questioned his running out of defence saying it wouldn't have been wise on a dry day. Really! Is he slow on dry pitches and everyone else faster?

Ben Youngs is the best scrum half when he shuts up and gets the ball out quickly instead of waiting for perfect ball or telling the ref how to do it. Frustratingly we only see glimpses of that Ben Youngs. Something Tigers need to sort.

[voice of the crumbie]

Good summary Mol. Would add the following:

1.Remove Sinckler, Slade and Robshaw from the squad. 1st 2 not up to it and Robshaw now past it.
2.Play people in their proper positions - Brown full back, Daly centre.
3.Nathan Hughes is not the replacement for Billy Vunipola. I actually believe it will take a long time for Billy to get back to his best form - too many injuries from which he has returned too quickly. I have some doubts as to whether he will reach those heights again unless he gets a long rest and doesn't rush back from his latest injury.
4. Why are we picking Brad Shields? Nothing against him personally but if he's not goood enough for the All Blacks why is he deemed good enough fo England?
5. Jamie George needs to work on his line out throwing.

[Smudge]

Mol2 wrote

Ford has played himself out of contention. Solid technique but doesn't stop a player in the tackle - essentially gets run over - hangs on but doesn't down his man. Forces England to defend to narrow only to be exposed out wide.

Have we been watching the same games?
While I wish he could spend more time with Tigers than England (the ridiculous autumn internationals see us playing the Jarpies yet again) he will remain an England International for years to come because he is sheer class and EJ knows it.
The reluctant inclusion of Cipriani proved nothing. George would have done as well and most likely better behind our more dominant pack.

[Leicestertinytiger]

Mol2 wrote

Ford has played himself out of contention. Solid technique but doesn't stop a player in the tackle - essentially gets run over - hangs on but doesn't down his man. Forces England to defend to narrow only to be exposed out wide.

Have we been watching the same games?
While I wish he could spend more time with Tigers than England (the ridiculous autumn internationals see us playing the Jarpies yet again) he will remain an England International for years to come because he is sheer class and EJ knows it.
The reluctant inclusion of Cipriani proved nothing. George would have done as well and most likely better behind our more dominant pack.

Whilst England lost the first two tests, scored some class tries off the back of Ford’s playmaking ability. No one else in an England shirt has the short passing ability that he does. He made those tries, yet everyone seems to forget that and focusses on his negatives.

[Stephen18]

Ford won’t be out the team anytime soon certainly not whilst Eddie's in charge he’s got he team of favourites just like Lancaster did, he might find himself on the bench, but I think they’ll use Cips off the bench and it will be Lozowski, Slade and Francis(rightly so who will drop out) certainly until they find themselves an out and out 12 who can stay fit. Personally I probably would have put Barritt back in he doesn’t do anything flash but doesn’t miss tackles and make reasonable go forward.

[Rugbyflanker]

Cips can make those passes,he's comfortably our best FH playing flat to the line and putting people through. Is he any better defensively though? Not for me,why SA didn't target him I don't know but he will be in the future. Ford stays out the 23 now for the AIs,he's a fallback option but we need to see if Cips and Farrell can work,no point wasting another 4 caps on F and F this autumn.

[BFG]

Cipriani, Ford, Farrell etc, England have a glut of flakey players.
Sure yes they have some class, second class.
I have talent but I'm no porn star.
I saw better teenage 10's last season but they were nowhere near the England U20 set up.
It's not what you know it's who you know, and this lot and some of their buddies would be nowhere without it.
England are trying to build teams around average players.
People need to open their eyes properly, the young French 10 who played in the French U20 winning team will be better than all of them, and even he is someone's son.

[Soggypitch]

Hartley has been a big miss!

Those are words I never thought I'd see on a Tigers forum

It is always weird to see a player you thought would be an improvement prove not to be (Slade is another)and the player you though was a makeweight turns out to be part of the glue that holds the side together.

Very true but I thought George played well in the last Test, as did all the pack to be honest, even Sinckler (although he will always be a "finisher" for me).
Curry was a success but in all honesty I still rate BOC as better and with more experience, although Curry has lots of potential to improve (as does his brother).
I would love to see Nowell properly fit this season and given a run at 15, I think he has all the skills to be a Test full back, more so than Watson.

[BFG]

Those are words I never thought I'd see on a Tigers forum

It is always weird to see a player you thought would be an improvement prove not to be (Slade is another)and the player you though was a makeweight turns out to be part of the glue that holds the side together.

Very true but I thought George played well in the last Test, as did all the pack to be honest, even Sinckler (although he will always be a "finisher" for me).
Curry was a success but in all honesty I still rate BOC as better and with more experience, although Curry has lots of potential to improve (as does his brother).
I would love to see Nowell properly fit this season and given a run at 15, I think he has all the skills to be a Test full back, more so than Watson.

Did the pack play well or did the poor weather slow the game down to their level?

[Soggypitch]

It is always weird to see a player you thought would be an improvement prove not to be (Slade is another)and the player you though was a makeweight turns out to be part of the glue that holds the side together.

Very true but I thought George played well in the last Test, as did all the pack to be honest, even Sinckler (although he will always be a "finisher" for me).
Curry was a success but in all honesty I still rate BOC as better and with more experience, although Curry has lots of potential to improve (as does his brother).
I would love to see Nowell properly fit this season and given a run at 15, I think he has all the skills to be a Test full back, more so than Watson.

Did the pack play well or did the poor weather slow the game down to their level?

Look at the penalty count and the turnovers made and it was a huge improvement. Also the set piece much better. We also won.
QED.

[BFG]

Very true but I thought George played well in the last Test, as did all the pack to be honest, even Sinckler (although he will always be a "finisher" for me).
Curry was a success but in all honesty I still rate BOC as better and with more experience, although Curry has lots of potential to improve (as does his brother).
I would love to see Nowell properly fit this season and given a run at 15, I think he has all the skills to be a Test full back, more so than Watson.

Did the pack play well or did the poor weather slow the game down to their level?

Look at the penalty count and the turnovers made and it was a huge improvement. Also the set piece much better. We also won.
QED.

I thought the conditions helped England with a slower game up front in general and the South African will didn't look quite as strong as the first two tests and I was told that.
Of course it can rain anytime but it's not a great foundation for a gameplan.
The whole tour has left more questions than answers.
Only some of the outside backs come out of it with any real credit in my opinion.

[Rugbyflanker]

Only backs who can stick their chest out are Brown and May for me,the rest poor to middling. I hate to single a player out but for me the turning point was Daly's awful mistake,he dots that ball down like he should have instead of stupidly trying to scoop it up then we have a 22 drop out and relieve some pressure then who knows?

[BFG]

Only backs who can stick their chest out are Brown and May for me,the rest poor to middling. I hate to single a player out but for me the turning point was Daly's awful mistake,he dots that ball down like he should have instead of stupidly trying to scoop it up then we have a 22 drop out and relieve some pressure then who knows?

That's a spot on assessment.
An international full back should be dealing with that type of situation.
The selections have to be questioned around that area given that Daly has been shifted from outside centre to wing and then to full back.
Farrell playing at 10 for club and 12 for country is not ideal.
England shouldn't need to do these things in my opinion.
Brown would've dealt with that situation, if he had the pace to get there.
Why they even bothered to take Woodward and then select how they did is baffling.

[Leicestertinytiger]

Eddie Jones is set to meet the RFU Chiefs over England’s recent form. Can’t blame them, the amount Jones is being paid and England have been awful all year.

He should have picked a younger squad for the SA series and rested more Lions. At least he would have had an excuse when we lost.

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

The carping about Shields is daft, ignore the AB situation, how many Northern Hemisphere players would get in the AB backrow? Or their 2nd choice or even 3rd choice? People moan about Shields but big up BOC, no difference in their situation re England, tbh we could state the same re a lot if the England squad.
There is a fair chunk of rotting wood in the squad & too many saplings, after RWC 2019 the should be a proper thought over 2023 & build to that, the results in-between might go down a bit but long term a gain.