Is the playing squad up to the job?

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Tiglon
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Re: Is the playing squad up to the job?

Post by Tiglon » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:17 pm

chewbacca wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:00 pm
mightymouse wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:53 am
This issue of the A squad is the fundemental one. Versus what Chiefs are doing (Which is what we used to do) we are miles behind. It was apparent some years ago we gave up on the academy and concentrated in buying in players. The academy has gone down hill dramatically unsurprisingly and therefore we lose the conveyor belt of new talent fed to the A team and thus onto 1st team.
We are doing what Saracens used to do years ago... packed with individual stars but look clueless as a team. Meanwhile saras and chiefs do the the opposite (indeed looked at our previous model and copied it) and suprise suprise they are successful. They have good home produced talent fed all the way through to national team. Great team ethics. Clear playing style. And no superstars who are bigger than the club. For years everyone admired what we did ... the only people who didn't seem to admire what we did was ... US!
This is what Dean Richards fell out with the club about. Look at what that man did for Quins (leaving aside the obvious brain f ..t of bloodgate) he built a team from the bottom which Oshea later benefited from. Once again at Falcons he is slowly doing the same in the most unfancied of places. This can only be done from the Base slowly but surely. Do our board have the courage to give a coach the reins to do it again? Probaby not!
Totally agree. Board should all assess their positions, they after all set the direction and culture, downward and individualist by the looks of it.
Completely agree - Sarries and Exeter have got it right.

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Re: Is the playing squad up to the job?

Post by BFG » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:25 pm

mightymouse wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:53 am
This issue of the A squad is the fundemental one. Versus what Chiefs are doing (Which is what we used to do) we are miles behind. It was apparent some years ago we gave up on the academy and concentrated in buying in players. The academy has gone down hill dramatically unsurprisingly and therefore we lose the conveyor belt of new talent fed to the A team and thus onto 1st team.
We are doing what Saracens used to do years ago... packed with individual stars but look clueless as a team. Meanwhile saras and chiefs do the the opposite (indeed looked at our previous model and copied it) and suprise suprise they are successful. They have good home produced talent fed all the way through to national team. Great team ethics. Clear playing style. And no superstars who are bigger than the club. For years everyone admired what we did ... the only people who didn't seem to admire what we did was ... US!
This is what Dean Richards fell out with the club about. Look at what that man did for Quins (leaving aside the obvious brain f ..t of bloodgate) he built a team from the bottom which Oshea later benefited from. Once again at Falcons he is slowly doing the same in the most unfancied of places. This can only be done from the Base slowly but surely. Do our board have the courage to give a coach the reins to do it again? Probaby not!
Brilliant post mightymouse!
I used to frustrate at the identification process of youngsters, coaches who kept quoting some X-factor as a key requirement in kids, completely dismissing the basics and arrogantly believing that the basics can be taught to anyone!
They were wrong, the basics canno't be taught to anyone, and even if they can be taught to some the physical ability to be able to carry them out to the level is still required, things such as awareness, strength, aggression and just a relentless desire to win and keep learning to improve to get what they want were cast aside.
You can't teach the X-factor they used to say, they were wrong, it doesn't need teaching, those with a real desire to learn from the bottom up to achieve will find it!
There was a time Farrell appeared to have no X-factor, but through a sheer desire to win and get better he now has it, some people around these parts still don't rate Farrell, they just don't get why and even if they did they wouldn't admit it as it doesn't profile their sons attributes very well, and folk like that are running the show in picking future players!
Itoje would've been considered no X-factor around these parts, a bit slow, not great hands etc, and look at him now, the lad is machine like in his desire to compete!
The X-factor counts for very little if the basics are poor!

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Re: Is the playing squad up to the job?

Post by TomWeston » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:46 pm

BFG wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:25 pm
mightymouse wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:53 am
This issue of the A squad is the fundemental one. Versus what Chiefs are doing (Which is what we used to do) we are miles behind. It was apparent some years ago we gave up on the academy and concentrated in buying in players. The academy has gone down hill dramatically unsurprisingly and therefore we lose the conveyor belt of new talent fed to the A team and thus onto 1st team.
We are doing what Saracens used to do years ago... packed with individual stars but look clueless as a team. Meanwhile saras and chiefs do the the opposite (indeed looked at our previous model and copied it) and suprise suprise they are successful. They have good home produced talent fed all the way through to national team. Great team ethics. Clear playing style. And no superstars who are bigger than the club. For years everyone admired what we did ... the only people who didn't seem to admire what we did was ... US!
This is what Dean Richards fell out with the club about. Look at what that man did for Quins (leaving aside the obvious brain f ..t of bloodgate) he built a team from the bottom which Oshea later benefited from. Once again at Falcons he is slowly doing the same in the most unfancied of places. This can only be done from the Base slowly but surely. Do our board have the courage to give a coach the reins to do it again? Probaby not!
Brilliant post mightymouse!
I used to frustrate at the identification process of youngsters, coaches who kept quoting some X-factor as a key requirement in kids, completely dismissing the basics and arrogantly believing that the basics can be taught to anyone!
They were wrong, the basics canno't be taught to anyone, and even if they can be taught to some the physical ability to be able to carry them out to the level is still required, things such as awareness, strength, aggression and just a relentless desire to win and keep learning to improve to get what they want were cast aside.
You can't teach the X-factor they used to say, they were wrong, it doesn't need teaching, those with a real desire to learn from the bottom up to achieve will find it!
There was a time Farrell appeared to have no X-factor, but through a sheer desire to win and get better he now has it, some people around these parts still don't rate Farrell, they just don't get why and even if they did they wouldn't admit it as it doesn't profile their sons attributes very well, and folk like that are running the show in picking future players!
Itoje would've been considered no X-factor around these parts, a bit slow, not great hands etc, and look at him now, the lad is machine like in his desire to compete!
The X-factor counts for very little if the basics are poor!
I blame today’s state schools and their ‘everyone is a winner’ mentality! Plus abandoning competitive sport.
:smt003

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Re: Is the playing squad up to the job?

Post by kend » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:46 pm

TomWeston wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:46 pm
BFG wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:25 pm
mightymouse wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:53 am
This issue of the A squad is the fundemental one. Versus what Chiefs are doing (Which is what we used to do) we are miles behind. It was apparent some years ago we gave up on the academy and concentrated in buying in players. The academy has gone down hill dramatically unsurprisingly and therefore we lose the conveyor belt of new talent fed to the A team and thus onto 1st team.
We are doing what Saracens used to do years ago... packed with individual stars but look clueless as a team. Meanwhile saras and chiefs do the the opposite (indeed looked at our previous model and copied it) and suprise suprise they are successful. They have good home produced talent fed all the way through to national team. Great team ethics. Clear playing style. And no superstars who are bigger than the club. For years everyone admired what we did ... the only people who didn't seem to admire what we did was ... US!
This is what Dean Richards fell out with the club about. Look at what that man did for Quins (leaving aside the obvious brain f ..t of bloodgate) he built a team from the bottom which Oshea later benefited from. Once again at Falcons he is slowly doing the same in the most unfancied of places. This can only be done from the Base slowly but surely. Do our board have the courage to give a coach the reins to do it again? Probaby not!
Brilliant post mightymouse!
I used to frustrate at the identification process of youngsters, coaches who kept quoting some X-factor as a key requirement in kids, completely dismissing the basics and arrogantly believing that the basics can be taught to anyone!
They were wrong, the basics canno't be taught to anyone, and even if they can be taught to some the physical ability to be able to carry them out to the level is still required, things such as awareness, strength, aggression and just a relentless desire to win and keep learning to improve to get what they want were cast aside.
You can't teach the X-factor they used to say, they were wrong, it doesn't need teaching, those with a real desire to learn from the bottom up to achieve will find it!
There was a time Farrell appeared to have no X-factor, but through a sheer desire to win and get better he now has it, some people around these parts still don't rate Farrell, they just don't get why and even if they did they wouldn't admit it as it doesn't profile their sons attributes very well, and folk like that are running the show in picking future players!
Itoje would've been considered no X-factor around these parts, a bit slow, not great hands etc, and look at him now, the lad is machine like in his desire to compete!
The X-factor counts for very little if the basics are poor!
I blame today’s state schools and their ‘everyone is a winner’ mentality! Plus abandoning competitive sport.
:smt003
Bit of a stretch to blame state schools for the state of Tigers rugby......

Seriously hasn't the academy been restructured recently with Ant Allan as lead coach? If there were issues then presumably they have been addressed?
even if they did they wouldn't admit it as it doesn't profile their sons attributes very well, and folk like that are running the show in picking future players
I see this sort of comment fairly often on the forum. I don't know the Tigers academy (and it's possible that it has been as dysfunctional as you say) but I do know a bit about one at another club. Having a famous Dad might help get a player through the door, but it isn't credible that anyone could get to a squad position through nepotism. There are just too many coaches with sight of the process, plus structured assessment/performance testing. They must have hit their numbers to make it through. I can't imagine MoC sitting in a selection meeting saying 'Jeez mate, we have to pick Thacks, his Dad's in the stands'......

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Re: Is the playing squad up to the job?

Post by BFG » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:49 am

No I don't suppose MOC would say that kend, unless they have shares in which case would they be his boss! :smt005
It's all about opinions and they can be influenced and differ greatly, and it's not about hitting numbers, it's about opportunities.
Do I think Leicester could've had a young Slade or Cowan-Dickie type now available to them with development, or a young Ackermann or another Genge, you bet I do, seen them with my own eyes ripe for development!
Leicester made their choices and are where they are, lots of coaches about, are they good and if so are they swimming against a tide!
I think it's fair to say that it has been dysfunctional if bolstering the seniors to produce a winning first team is the benchmark.
I do genuinely believe that a dysfunctional academy has weakened the first team, good players like Kitchener gradually getting worse, the day to day training standard is crucially important in gaining the proper preparation for consistency!
I always get accused on here of picking on weak players, but it's no surprise to me that areas such as the maul have suffered when I look at how small some of our players are, you could be mauling against Wee Jimmy Krankie from Monday to Friday and then on Saturday (or Sunday) it's Sarries or Exeter!

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Re: Is the playing squad up to the job?

Post by G.K » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:37 am

TomWeston wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:46 pm

I blame today’s state schools and their ‘everyone is a winner’ mentality! Plus abandoning competitive sport.
:smt003
I blame Brexit (it seems to be the excuse for all other failings).
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

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Re: Is the playing squad up to the job?

Post by Duncan B » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:23 am

In response to the topic, no.

Our back line is exceptional. Our second and back row options are not good enough to compete. We don’t get front foot ball consistently enough to exploit defences. The lineout has been pretty dire all year too which is a massive problem. The number of missed opportunities from throws going astray is bordering on the absurd.

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Re: Is the playing squad up to the job?

Post by jgriffin » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:35 am

G.K wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:37 am
TomWeston wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:46 pm

I blame today’s state schools and their ‘everyone is a winner’ mentality! Plus abandoning competitive sport.
:smt003
I blame Brexit (it seems to be the excuse for all other failings).
Not sure what planet Tom is on, (tho' suspected Planet Irony) but it ain't ever the one inhabited by the state schools (including Bishop Veseys) that I have taught at. Most are football schools with little rugby - nothing to do with the Daily Fail myth about competitiveness (fed by a couple of PRIMARY schools many years ago) and competition, it was/is usually ferocious both within and between schools in all sporting areas. That's kids for you, and I've never met a non-competitive PE teacher yet in 40+ years.
With rugby, it is to do with budget cuts (Veseys is affected and the rugby dept no longer exists) or depends, as it always did, on the expertise of the PE Dept. There is another factor, a reflection of the AP: one of the issues Veseys staff talked about was that other sides picked the biggest lads, and at that level it could be a deciding factor in matches. Consequently, size is sometimes prioritised over skill even in rugby schools, and I have heard the phrase 'not going to be big enough for top-flight' a few times.
Rugby suffers badly except at Tag level or 7s, more likely formats for schools. The feed of talent is miniscule, probably comparable to basketball.
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Re: Is the playing squad up to the job?

Post by wellstiger » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:28 am

Another point of view - If we let the under achievers go how many would be seen as viable Premiership material.
Some may retire rather than play in the Championship. Cant see many French clubs coming forward. Just a hypothetical question

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Re: Is the playing squad up to the job?

Post by BFG » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:38 am

Yep quite right jgriffin, even the young amateurs know that if you get big lads to run at little lads then you can win, and it doesn't really change much at senior level either, people just make out that it does to get favoured little lads through.
Players like Kalamafoni used to ball carry at Gloucester, a few months at Leicester training and he struggles to move a blade of grass.
Players also taking the ball from a standing start, from Monday to Friday they can make ground with their eyes closed then come match day they haven't even got time to open them.
The lineoout, Slater goes and all of a sudden they can't compete so well under pressure, day to day training levels in that area reduced with Slater gone!
Failure to prepare is preparation to fail!
Skill over size is a romantic notion, but here is a thing for a professional team, HOW ABOUT BOTH!

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Re: Is the playing squad up to the job?

Post by strawclearer » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:43 pm

England U20s have named their 32-man Elite Player Squad for the 2017/18 season.

The squad, which will compete in the 2018 Six Nations as well as the World Rugby U20 Championship in May, will be led by Steve Bates and fellow coaches Anthony Allen, Richard Blaze and James Ponton.

Forwards:

Josh Basham (London Irish), Ben Curry (Sale Sharks), Beck Cutting (Worcester Warriors), Ben Earl (Saracens), Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers), Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors), Dino Lamb (Harlequins), Sam Lewis (Leicester Tigers), Sam Moore (Sale Sharks), Joe Morris (Worcester Warriors), Gabriel Oghre (Wasps), James Scott (Worcester Warriors), Alex Seville (Gloucester), Marcus Street (Exeter Chiefs), Toby Trinder (Northampton Saints), Henry Walker (Gloucester), Tom Willis (Wasps).

Backs

Rory Brand (London Irish), Will Butler (Worcester Warriors), Aaron Chapman (Bristol), Ali Crossdale (Saracens), Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints), James Grayson (Northampton Saints), Tom Hardwick (Leicester Tigers), Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins), Ben Loader (London Irish), Jordan Olowofela (Leicester Tigers), Tom Parton (London Irish), Tom Seabrook (Gloucester), Joe Snow (Exeter Chiefs), Ben White (Leicester Tigers), Matt Williams (London Irish).

Well done to all!
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Re: Is the playing squad up to the job?

Post by mightymouse » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:06 am

Yes I just read that and maybe just maybe the restructuring under AA is paying off as we have 5 in the 32. We will have to see how they develop ... I did like the young full back when I saw the A team earlier this season. However they have to feed all the way through the system and know what the end point is for them. I do get frustrated when I see someone as good as Lewington plying his trade so well elsewhere.

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