Matt Smiths disallowed try

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ourla
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Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by ourla » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:47 pm

Rules on grounding:
There are two ways a player can ground the ball:
(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required.
(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive.
Clearly (a) doesn't apply here. But what part of (b) disallows it. Pearce said he didn't have control but there is no mention of control in the law. And from what I could see his first contact was elbow and then his arm rolled along the ball until his hand was fully on it. Seemed reasonable to me and I thought it was legit.

I know it made no odds because it was penalty advantage and we scored a penalty try off the next play. I am just curious as to what others thought, especially anyone who knows the practical application of the laws well.
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Re: Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by Christophelp » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:41 pm

Well the knock-on law says this:

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

I might not be recalling things correctly but I thought that before he reached for the ball to ground it, at some point the ball hit his arm and then hit the ground before he pressed down on the ball, which would mean that he knocked on. Of course, whether that's what Pearce meant by not having in control is a different question.

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Re: Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by ellis9 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:08 pm

It certainly looked like the ball didn't touch the ground to me. Therefore, a try should have been awarded as there was downward pressure.

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Re: Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by ourla » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:28 pm

On the commentary they were debating if he had made contact before he put downward pressure with the elbow but I don't think he did. However, the referee didn't seem to be looking at that but simply he didn't have control of the ball. It's an interesting technicality. I was just thinking about the downward pressure and looking at that grounding law it doesn't seem to matter what part of the upper body or arms puts the downward pressure. So the back of the elbow should be enough. That is my rose-tinted naturally interpretation.

You see them not given when a player is pushing down but loses control before the ball contacts the ground. But that doesn't seem to be the case here.
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Re: Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by Grimlish » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:38 pm

Clear knock on for me - the ball hits his elbow and then the ground before he gets his hand to it. Even if his arm was in contact with the ball from the moment it hit his elbow (which I v much doubt) it is for me a knock on (hence loss of control). The key issue is that the ball is on the ground before he gets his hand to it, and when first touched it is in the air.

Real time and without 'benefit' of the TMO I'd have given it.

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Re: Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by chewbacca » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:46 pm

I watched the replays on the big screen and I thought the ball came off his knee/thigh and he then grounded it with downward pressure from his arm so for me a try. Just goes to show how hard it is. No replays/tmo and I'd definitely have given it as a try
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Re: Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by ourla » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:29 pm

Grimlish wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:38 pm
Clear knock on for me - the ball hits his elbow and then the ground before he gets his hand to it.
I watched the match on a good screen last night and I didn't see anything conclusive before he grounded the ball with his elbow. As in out his elbow on the ball whilst the ball was in contact with the floor. According to the law he doesn't have to ground it with the hand. Sticking your elbow on is enough.
Grimlish wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:38 pm
Even if his arm was in contact with the ball from the moment it hit his elbow (which I v much doubt) it is for me a knock on (hence loss of control). The key issue is that the ball is on the ground before he gets his hand to it, and when first touched it is in the air.
Respectfully and maybe I need to look again I don't think the ball was in the air when he made contact with it. Even then that does not necessarily mean it was a knock on. As he wasn't already carrying the ball he just has to "press down" on it.
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Re: Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by ellis9 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:33 pm

Grimlish wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:38 pm
Clear knock on for me - the ball hits his elbow and then the ground before he gets his hand to it. Even if his arm was in contact with the ball from the moment it hit his elbow (which I v much doubt) it is for me a knock on (hence loss of control). The key issue is that the ball is on the ground before he gets his hand to it, and when first touched it is in the air.

Real time and without 'benefit' of the TMO I'd have given it.

It's not a knock on if the ball doesn't hit the ground though.

If the ball hit the floor before his arm, then it was a knock on.

If the ball didn't hit the floor, then it should have been a try.

Having the ball under control is irrelevant, it just needs downward pressure.

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Re: Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by MikeR » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:51 pm

Just put it down to incompetence and lets move on .

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Re: Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by LE18 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:53 pm

Christophelp wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:41 pm
Well the knock-on law says this:

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

I might not be recalling things correctly but I thought that before he reached for the ball to ground it, at some point the ball hit his arm and then hit the ground before he pressed down on the ball, which would mean that he knocked on. Of course, whether that's what Pearce meant by not having in control is a different question.
Exactly, he knocked it on with his arm first!

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Re: Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by Grimlish » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:08 pm

ourla wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:29 pm
Grimlish wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:38 pm
Clear knock on for me - the ball hits his elbow and then the ground before he gets his hand to it.
I watched the match on a good screen last night and I didn't see anything conclusive before he grounded the ball with his elbow. As in out his elbow on the ball whilst the ball was in contact with the floor. According to the law he doesn't have to ground it with the hand. Sticking your elbow on is enough.
Grimlish wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:38 pm
Even if his arm was in contact with the ball from the moment it hit his elbow (which I v much doubt) it is for me a knock on (hence loss of control). The key issue is that the ball is on the ground before he gets his hand to it, and when first touched it is in the air.
Respectfully and maybe I need to look again I don't think the ball was in the air when he made contact with it. Even then that does not necessarily mean it was a knock on. As he wasn't already carrying the ball he just has to "press down" on it.
The ball is clearly in the air when he appears to touch it with his elbow. He gets his hand on the ball after it hits the ground. Unless the ball rolls down his arm without losing contact at any point then it is a knock on pure and simple. If it does stay in contact with the arm then it's more debatable but since he never has the ball under control before he gets his hand to it in my view that's correctly called a knock on too. The law about touching it down is usually assumed to mean without prior contact. Whether that is correct is debatable too. In my opinion it is very unlikely the ball rolled down his arm with uninterrupted contact.

Like I say, I'd have given it in real time, and yes let's move on.

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Re: Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by Christophelp » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:54 pm

LE18 wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:53 pm
Christophelp wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:41 pm
Well the knock-on law says this:

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

I might not be recalling things correctly but I thought that before he reached for the ball to ground it, at some point the ball hit his arm and then hit the ground before he pressed down on the ball, which would mean that he knocked on. Of course, whether that's what Pearce meant by not having in control is a different question.
Exactly, he knocked it on with his arm first!
This, I've watched the replay and the ball clearly bounces, hits his thigh, then his forearm before it hits the ground and is grounded afterwards. Clear knock on.

And to give Pearce the credit I didn't give him earlier, he says not in control and a knock on.

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Re: Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by Qbec » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:05 am

No Downward pressure required, No mention of Control in Law 22.1(a)
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Re: Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by Grimlish » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:31 am

Qbec wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:05 am
No Downward pressure required, No mention of Control in Law 22.1(a)
But that only applies if its not a knock on - which it is.

Pearce's comment makes sense if it is applied to the knock on by the elbow/arm, it doesnt make sense if it is applied to the grounding.

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Re: Matt Smiths disallowed try

Post by Latecomer » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:49 am

chewbacca wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:46 pm
I watched the replays on the big screen and I thought the ball came off his knee/thigh and he then grounded it with downward pressure from his arm so for me a try. Just goes to show how hard it is. No replays/tmo and I'd definitely have given it as a try
Exactly. Perfectly good try to me, but given we had a referee and TMO would couldn't spot a clear forward pass for the Gloucester try which gave them the lead in the Anglo Welsh game at Welford Rd it just goes to show how much use the TMO system is.

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