The Return Of Ford

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jgriffin
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by jgriffin »

sam16111986 wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:38 pm
jgriffin wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:44 pm
DC1989 wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:11 pm Re-watch Tigers loss to Bath at Twickenham last season and see if you still think we haven't upgraded with Ford coming in.
If you were there, you would realise Tiger's failure to sub as defence wilted in 30 odd degrees temperature, around 60 mins, significantly cut the defence line speed and width. After that Ford was allowed to run laterally as well as forward, and outrun the labouring defence.
Having said that, we were about 3 inches from a win, the amount JPP needed to be taller to make the interception.
I saw it as no coincidence that MOC was back, as subbing was an issue (as was promoting young players) when he was coach before.
Ford started turning that game round in the first half. He dragged Bath to a victory they didn't deserve. That game highlighted the difference between a very good club flyhalf and an international class flyhalf. Ford adapted his teams tactics and plans on the field, he took responsibility and drove them forwards. He should have been man of the match but Dayglo was hosting a Falatau love in despite Luke Hamilton smashing him all over the park in the first half.

Burns is a very good player and I'm disappointed that he's left but Ford is a better flyhalf in every area other than goal kicking. Ideally I'd have wanted both and pushed the Burns conversion to 15 where he can launch counter attacks from deep, be a secondary playmaker, help with the tactical kicking and still kick for goal. Nevermind.
All I can say is we must have been at different games. Ford got nowhere for a long while because of Tiger's defence and nullification of threats, as you did note. IMO the temperature was important and Bath sorted it.
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by Tiglon »

jgriffin wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:52 pm
sam16111986 wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:38 pm
jgriffin wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:44 pm

If you were there, you would realise Tiger's failure to sub as defence wilted in 30 odd degrees temperature, around 60 mins, significantly cut the defence line speed and width. After that Ford was allowed to run laterally as well as forward, and outrun the labouring defence.
Having said that, we were about 3 inches from a win, the amount JPP needed to be taller to make the interception.
I saw it as no coincidence that MOC was back, as subbing was an issue (as was promoting young players) when he was coach before.
Ford started turning that game round in the first half. He dragged Bath to a victory they didn't deserve. That game highlighted the difference between a very good club flyhalf and an international class flyhalf. Ford adapted his teams tactics and plans on the field, he took responsibility and drove them forwards. He should have been man of the match but Dayglo was hosting a Falatau love in despite Luke Hamilton smashing him all over the park in the first half.

Burns is a very good player and I'm disappointed that he's left but Ford is a better flyhalf in every area other than goal kicking. Ideally I'd have wanted both and pushed the Burns conversion to 15 where he can launch counter attacks from deep, be a secondary playmaker, help with the tactical kicking and still kick for goal. Nevermind.
All I can say is we must have been at different games. Ford got nowhere for a long while because of Tiger's defence and nullification of threats, as you did note. IMO the temperature was important and Bath sorted it.
At the game I remember asking my Bath supporting friend if Bath might mind cancelling the swap. By the end of the match I had changed my mind.

Burns is a very good player, Ford is a very good player. Given the choice I would take Ford, but the England commitment makes it a close call. At 27 burns should be at his peak now, whereas Ford at 24 still has an extra 3 years to learn and improve - I'm very excited to see him back in a Tigers shirt.
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by iceman_19 »

JGriffin everybody has their opinion of course, but I am staggered that you could even think that Ford was not impressive for the full 80 in that game against Bath. When I was there I was really impressed with his manipulation of the defence, his timing of passes etc - it caused us problems all day. I'd suggest a rewatch but let's be honest who has time for that.

I am though a huge Burns fan and am gutted he has gone. I'm reserving judgement on who got the better deal until the season starts, but Fords performances at the back end of last season and in Argentina make me think he could potentially be a step up even from Freddie.

And re: MOC in that game - correct me if I'm wrong but I thought he had only just arrived and was maintaining a watching brief for that game?
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by BFG »

Odd iceman as I recall Ford being little more than a steady pair of hands in that game, the special stuff came from others.
I think Burns could enjoy playing at Bath surrounded by all that talent with his more varied game.
Ford can be too much of a focal point IMO, often running what just doesn't need running, but no doubt when it comes to making the most of space Ford is right up there!
I also thought at the time in that game that it was a poor choice when the ball was kicked out at the end as I always thought Bath really needed the try bonus point and to deny Leicester a losing bonus point.
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by westwinds31 »

Quick question then, if you were England head coach and you could have Burns or Ford......?
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by BFG »

westwinds31 wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:33 pm Quick question then, if you were England head coach and you could have Burns or Ford......?
Depends on the rest of the team set up really, IMO that's the most important thing.
IMO if they do so then England will win the World Cup because of others and not these two.
Individually it's not a Burns versus Ford debate for me, the fact is I don't think either are anywhere near a Dan Carter or Johnny Wilkinson.
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by johnthegriff »

I agree with that assessment but neither Wilkinson or Carter in their prime are available. I believe Deano genuinely thought Wilkinson had agreed to join us unfortunately he decided to remain at Newcastle so Deano signed the next best available, Ramiro Pez, we are now better than that with a young and improving George Ford, he might not be Jonny W but he is already pretty good and getting better.
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by Goshengareth »

we've got the England fly half, who's coming off the back of what is widely regarded as an excellent tour of Argentina in a team bereft of its stars, and still people are bemoaning it. They'd rather have Freddie, who, love him as much as I do, has few if any England caps. Whilst people are all entitled to views, their assessments are in stark contrast to that of Eddie Jones, one of the greatest coaches in modern rugby history.

Can't wait for George to get going. If T-force are both fit in the centres, and May is scorching away on the wing, then it should be a fun ride. Back line is right up there.

As people have mentioned, biggest concerns are up front where we need to add some fire to the pack (in attitude as much as anything). As another posted pointed out, they don't have the grunt required to dominate vs Sarries or the best in Europe. Good enough for top 4 in premiership, but not more.
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by westwinds31 »

Burns definitely improved at Tigers and became a fans favourite, quite rightly given his commitment to the cause. He kept his maverick side, worked on his kicking from the tee and also from hand, whilst also improving his game management. Ford, in my view is way ahead of Freddie though. Ford can't tackle like Wilkinson and probably never will, given his frame, plus his kicking percentage won't end up anywhere near Johnny's, although it's improving. Ford however, is arguably the best in the world at bring others into the game, in particular his delayed pass is up there in the world game, again in my view. His performances, albeit two games in Argentina were world class and if he can maintain that, we are in for a treat, both at Tigers and for England.
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by chappie »

Can we get back to the topic of this thread, what's, ifs and maybes are a bit boring, Ford is now signed so if you feel the need to discuss Ford and Burns playing styles then please start a thread for that discussion, sorry just saying, over to you Tigerbeat😀
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by sam16111986 »

Scott11 wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:11 pm Is that the same Eddie who plays Haskell who has played 3 awesome games in 70 caps or the same Eddie who plays Hartley who offers close to fcuck all for just over 40 minutes lol.
Same Eddie who has lost only one game in two years. Has won back to back six nations tournaments including a grand slam. White washed Australia and Argentina whilst touring those nations. You might not agree with every selection he makes but he knows what he's doing.

Ford has only not started one game during Eddie's reign. England were losing and not performing, after 30 minutes Jones had seen enough and Ford came on and England eased away to victory.

JGriffing, we were 12-0 up after 15 minutes and then Ford created a try through brilliance ball in hand and against the run of play. He doesn't do that and we'd have won a cricket score against Bath. They had no right to be in touching distance at half time. The fatigue in the second half certainly hurt us but Ford was brilliant though it's worth noting he did have Joseph and Watson as great finishers outside him.
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by Scott11 »

Im a massive fan of Eddie but my point being certain players don't get picked and certain players do,are Burns,Wade and Cips for instance not good enough for England? Ford's form for both England and Bath since his brilliant season when they reached the final under his Dad has been middling with the odd good game here and there,his game management has got better but at the expense of HS flair. He's nowhere near the same player imo and that of many Bath fans. But he's a Tigers player now again so he's great!
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by sam16111986 »

Scott11 wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:36 pm Im a massive fan of Eddie but my point being certain players don't get picked and certain players do,are Burns,Wade and Cips for instance not good enough for England? Ford's form for both England and Bath since his brilliant season when they reached the final under his Dad has been middling with the odd good game here and there,his game management has got better but at the expense of HS flair. He's nowhere near the same player imo and that of many Bath fans. But he's a Tigers player now again so he's great!
He's not been happy but would you be happy if your team mates had complained to your employers and got your dad sacked?

Much was made of his supposed poor form but England were, Ireland game aside, free scoring with him at the helm (it wasn't Farrell stimulating the attacking play in the backline). England as a whole struggled to control games in the 6N but that was more up front with the backrow not really working.

Bath had a mass of injuries (more than us and probably just as many centre combos) and he nearly got them into the top four. If Bath had a serviceable front row they probably would have made it. It seemed a constant Farrell love in from the BBC inparticular with Ford shown no love until he destroyed the Argentina first team with the England second team.
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by Scott11 »

Is that the Argentina side who Georgia scored the same amount of tries against in the very next game?
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Re: Leicester Tigers 2017/18 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread!

Post by Scott11 »

And get it right,MF was sacked for rattling the physio!
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