The Conumdrum that is Ben Youngs !

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ukjohno44
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The Conumdrum that is Ben Youngs !

Post by ukjohno44 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:01 pm

Many people on this forum have in response to the many uninspired performances this season for Tigers from our England NOS 9 have pointed to the fact that his performances, which can described as being somewhere near average (at best) to downright poor this season for Tigers is because he has been working behind a retreating pack, something ,whilst playing for England he doesn't have to do.
Well yesterday, our pack were dominant and were all over the sarries scrum for much of the game. So much so, that on the stroke of half time, we almost scored from one such opportunity starting in our own half, with the Leics pack shoving sarries off their put in, enabling the quick thinking Fitzgerald putting in a kick rush that ended with Goode having to step out of play on his own touch and goal line,only to be mucked up in the end with a poor call from OTY in going for the posts instead of another scrum on the 5 metre line. Given that,despite Tigers obvious scrum superiority, YBY was ponderous and slow and was outshone in every dept of play by his sarries counterpart the young kid Spencer. One can only deduce that given YBY has undoubted skill sets and talent, that he apparently no longer enjoys playing for Tigers and is currently more intent on working his passport out of the club than giving his all for the team. Its clear that Cockers has been let down by a number of his senior players by their continuing inept performances over recent seasons, with him, YBY being one of the worst offenders. Time for more than Cockers to go ?????????

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Re: The Conumdrum that is Ben Youngs !

Post by LE18 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:11 pm

Ben did himself no favours with that performance in front of Eddie Jones, he could find himself on the bench for England. As for the Lions, he is never going to be in front of Conor Murray!

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Re: The Conumdrum that is Ben Youngs !

Post by Bristol Tiger » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:14 pm

Think this is overly harsh - there have been a number of players not playing to their best ability, and in those circumstances the coaches get blamed (as we have seen today). I'll reference again (as you have highlighted this as well) the coaching team at England seem to get a lot more from the same group of players that Lancaster introduced and spectacularly failed with. Good coaches do make a difference.

On YBY - I thought he was thoroughly outplayed by Conor Murray (assume main Lions contender) in the first head to head with Munster. However, at Welford Road, and a more even forwards battle, I though YBY edged it. Really hard to say YBY is underperforming more than anyone else, as the whole team has been poor. I hope he does now step up to show some leadership in these circumstances.

May also be worth pointing out that when Tigers sacked Scott Hansen earlier this year, the scrum-half coach (as well as defence coach) - maybe Ben didn't take kindly to that.

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Re: The Conumdrum that is Ben Youngs !

Post by Skin_and_Muscle » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:27 pm

Bristol Tiger wrote: May also be worth pointing out that when Tigers sacked Scott Hansen earlier this year, the scrum-half coach (as well as defence coach) - maybe Ben didn't take kindly to that.
Does an apparently world class scrum half need a coach in his tenth(?) season of rugby to explain the importance of being able to pass and box kick accurately?
Progress requires that the fears of both sides be more fully aired, not that one side wins.

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Ben Youngs: Overated

Post by Zyzz » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:27 pm

For a while now I've noticed Ben Youngs' performances have been sinking quite dramatically.

In my opinion his head is way ahead of his game and there is no way he should be in be in the starting XV nevermind international level! He has become one of the most predictable players in the premiership with the classic time-wasting step he does before every pass, not to mention the poor box kicks which are often charged down. I could go on for hours.

Just look at that pass against Saracens which led to us conceding a try which lost us the game. A one armed monkey could have thrown a better pass maybe we should draft one of those in too to join the other 75% of amateaurs which fills the Leicester squad.

I now wait for the defensive die-hard fans who are the same people to defend Cockerill, who may I remind you has ran the club into the ground which we won't recover from for years.

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Re: The Conumdrum that is Ben Youngs !

Post by RagingBull » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:32 pm

Skin_and_Muscle wrote:
Bristol Tiger wrote: May also be worth pointing out that when Tigers sacked Scott Hansen earlier this year, the scrum-half coach (as well as defence coach) - maybe Ben didn't take kindly to that.
Does an apparently world class scrum half need a coach in his tenth(?) season of rugby to explain the importance of being able to pass and box kick accurately?
Did Wilkinson need a kicking coach NO, but he had one and that is why he is always remembered as one of the greatest professional the sport has had

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Re: The Conumdrum that is Ben Youngs !

Post by Skin_and_Muscle » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:38 pm

RagingBull wrote:
Skin_and_Muscle wrote:
Bristol Tiger wrote: May also be worth pointing out that when Tigers sacked Scott Hansen earlier this year, the scrum-half coach (as well as defence coach) - maybe Ben didn't take kindly to that.
Does an apparently world class scrum half need a coach in his tenth(?) season of rugby to explain the importance of being able to pass and box kick accurately?
Did Wilkinson need a kicking coach NO, but he had one and that is why he is always remembered as one of the greatest professional the sport has had
That's a fair point. I guess my question was positioned in relation to the other scrum halves; they seem(ed) to be getting on alright with the basic skills both with and without Hansen. Why is the speed and accuracy of his pass so much poorer than his more junior colleagues?
Progress requires that the fears of both sides be more fully aired, not that one side wins.

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Re: The Conumdrum that is Ben Youngs !

Post by Mark62 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:40 pm

So the question seems to be why is Youngs outstanding for England and rubbish for Tigers. Maybe people should look at the cause rather than the effect.
With England hi is more often than not given the ball on a silver plate, he is well protected at the side of rucks and mauls, has forwards running off the ball to give him options, has wingers and back row to chase his box kicks, all,in all it is quick attacking ball.
So you have Englands player of the Autumn series, making bad decisions, and playing poorly. Maybe this down to the forwards coach not coaching the forwards to give him adequate protection, to produce quick ball, and off load the ball rather than go to deck.
Yes t is hugely frustrating to see him waving his arms at the ref at the base of rucks, but if the fat blokes were doing their job the opposition wouldn't get near him. How often did our forwards get to their 9.

While on the subject how come yesterday we constantly stopped their driving maul at source by hitting the ball catcher, whereas at Exeter this didn't happen. Maybe the forwards coach has never seen Exeter drive a line out before!!!!!!

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Re: The Conumdrum that is Ben Youngs !

Post by Norfolk & Goode » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:40 pm

Not overrated according to the recent internationals, wasn't he voted Player of the Series?

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Re: The Conumdrum that is Ben Youngs !

Post by Tigerbeat » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:41 pm

Ben Youngs is good when he is playng behind a pack that is dominant and going forward. Tigers have not been in that position recently and not been given quick ball.
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Re: Ben Youngs: Overated

Post by Bristol Tiger » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:42 pm

Zyzz wrote:For a while now I've noticed Ben Youngs' performances have been sinking quite dramatically.

In my opinion his head is way ahead of his game and there is no way he should be in be in the starting XV nevermind international level! He has become one of the most predictable players in the premiership with the classic time-wasting step he does before every pass, not to mention the poor box kicks which are often charged down. I could go on for hours.

Just look at that pass against Saracens which led to us conceding a try which lost us the game. A one armed monkey could have thrown a better pass maybe we should draft one of those in too to join the other 75% of amateaurs which fills the Leicester squad.

I now wait for the defensive die-hard fans who are the same people to defend Cockerill, who may I remind you has ran the club into the ground which we won't recover from for years.
Suggest you just watch the England games over the autumn and Ben Youngs performance across the whole series. You will see his totally predictable play opening up international teams (yes including that time wasting, defence fixing step) and also his totally inaccurate kicking - just better than anything the opposition was throwing at England.

The stream this now sits is is aptly named - it is a conundrum as to why he can't find his England form for Tigers.

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Re: The Conumdrum that is Ben Youngs !

Post by Bristol Tiger » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:46 pm

Skin_and_Muscle wrote:That's a fair point. I guess my question was positioned in relation to the other scrum halves; they seem(ed) to be getting on alright with the basic skills both with and without Hansen. Why is the speed and accuracy of his pass so much poorer than his more junior colleagues?
Not sure our other scrum-halves have been any better when they have been on from the start. Don't think Kitto is progressing as much as we would like (and need); Harrison looks very industrious and quick, but not when he starts a game - he only seems to bring that energy when he comes on as a sub. (And yes, he should have come on against Saracens far earlier IMHO).

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Re: The Conumdrum that is Ben Youngs !

Post by Skin_and_Muscle » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:58 pm

Bristol Tiger wrote:
Skin_and_Muscle wrote:That's a fair point. I guess my question was positioned in relation to the other scrum halves; they seem(ed) to be getting on alright with the basic skills both with and without Hansen. Why is the speed and accuracy of his pass so much poorer than his more junior colleagues?
Not sure our other scrum-halves have been any better when they have been on from the start. Don't think Kitto is progressing as much as we would like (and need); Harrison looks very industrious and quick, but not when he starts a game - he only seems to bring that energy when he comes on as a sub. (And yes, he should have come on against Saracens far earlier IMHO).
I don't know about that. I think you have a point about Kitto. Harrison is an interesting one. I think Harrison can be criticized for slowing the play down at wrong moments in the game but his overall tempo, accuracy and, frankly, will has consistently got us in better positions. Slowing the ball down in the 22 strikes me as a lack of confidence rather than any serious skill issue.

I now anticipate more to happen when Harrison is playing than I do when Youngs is. If Harrison can get speed into the game with our forwards, a 'better' scrum half should, too. I made a similar point on another thread; good players play well in conditions that suit them, better players don't let the conditions bother them.
Progress requires that the fears of both sides be more fully aired, not that one side wins.

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Re: The Conumdrum that is Ben Youngs !

Post by chrisbates1974 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:01 pm

Hi All,

New around here (the forum), but season ticket holder the last two seasons, and a fan for ooooh a good few years. I'd agree that Youngs is getting less and less out of every game. I'd be playing Harrison at 9 every week. He's been consistently good - maybe not setting the world on fire - but good. As someone else said, you do get the feeling that "something" will happen when he is on the field.

That said, the entire game plan on Sunday was awful. A Plan A of kicking the ball away, with zero idea of what else to do, and then only 5 minutes for Harrison - which was when we almost brought the game back!

I'm sad to see Cockerill go, but it is the right time. For me, let's get some of the players on the fringes and chomping at the bit more involved for the rest of season in preparation for the next. We're not winning anything the way things are.

On the plus side, the win against Munster was fabulous!

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Re: The Conumdrum that is Ben Youngs !

Post by jgriffin » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:20 pm

I think you are being kind to BY. Perhaps he'll improve now Cockers has gone, since he likes Mauger bigtime (much like he like Hansen, and MOC before him, you know, the guys who ranked the SHs.....).
The key question is why does Shazam seem to hit the spot for Tigers?
1 he works his butt off?
2 he has a faster more accurate delivery which suits the style AM has our backs supposedly playing?
3 IMO he is a better all-round footballer
4 there may be other psychological reasons......?
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