1st Team quality needed to win titles

[darganj]

Of the starting XV on Saturday, I think some people are fantastic players and others are mainly squad players:

Prem and European Winners 1st XV quality:

Ayerza
Cole
Barrow (fantastic game - really impressed me and minimal pens)
O'Connor
Ben Youngs,
Manu Tuilagi,
Peter Betham
Telusa Veainu
Goneva

In between Prem and European Winners 1st XV quality and squad player:

Kitchener
Fitzgerald
McCafferey

Squad player:

Thacker
Tait
Owen Williams

Key issue for me was that our 2, 10 and 15 were squad players. Pretty crucial spine to the team and can't be compared to Brits/George, Farrell and Goode.

Of the Prem and European Winners 1st XV quality, we only lose Goneva next year. And we are up 1 overall, as JPP replaces Goneva and we get Toomua.
As I have said before the back 5 of the scrum is the issue and we need two very good players there, people of the calibre of Ben Morgan and Dom Barrow. I honestly think Slater is done for now, he can do a job during 6 nations etc but he doesn't have the quality. Similarly Kitchener is now 26 rising 27 and he hasn't hit the heights that we expected.

For me, our 2nd rows and number 8 are a weakness compared to Wasps, Sarries and Exeter. 2 signings there and we won't be far away next year.

[Iain]

Far more upbeat from you than I thought.

I disagree with you on the second row however. That's one area I think we're very strong in, and with good depth too.

Number 8: yeah maybe. Though McCaffrey has been excellent there and Hamilton is coming in with the ability to cover across the back row. Plus we also have a re-conditioned Fonua who looks far more useful than when he arrived. Much as I'd not be averse to seeing a big name 8 join us I suspect that we might be finished with our back row signings. We may even have completed all the recruitment we intend to make for the first team once Genge is finally announced as staying.

[Cardiff Tig]

Totally disagree about Owen Williams - definitely not just squad quality.

We probably haven't seen the best of him this season, but that's probably due to injuries.

[Iain]

Totally disagree about Owen Williams - definitely not just squad quality.

We probably haven't seen the best of him this season, but that's probably due to injuries.

He's looked a little rusty after his injury, but yeah, definitely better than a squad player. He didn't have a proper pre-season last season and I'm sure he'll benefit from one this season.

[RagingBull]

Whilst Ben Morgan would be a good signing his form esp club form in the last few years hasn't been top class exactly.

Would also put Mike Williams as a potential AP winner quality, IMO based on what I have seen of him.

Next season a 23 of
1) Ayerza
2) Youngs
3) Cole
4) Barrow
5) Slater (disagree about past it hopefully he can have a full preseason)
6) Williams
7) O'Connor
8) Hamilton/McCaffrey (prob our main weakness)
9) Youngs (form depending)
10) Burns
11) Betham
12) Toomua
13) Manu
14) JPP
15) Veainu

16) McGuigan
17) Genge
18) Logo/Cilliers
19) Fitz/Kitchener
20) Hamilton/McCaffrey
21) Harrison
22) Williams
23) Thompstone

For me 8 and Back 3 and we should be done filling any depth holes with academy products etc.

[darganj]

Whilst Ben Morgan would be a good signing his form esp club form in the last few years hasn't been top class exactly.

Would also put Mike Williams as a potential AP winner quality, IMO based on what I have seen of him.

Next season a 23 of
1) Ayerza
2) Youngs
3) Cole
4) Barrow
5) Slater (disagree about past it hopefully he can have a full preseason)
6) Williams
7) O'Connor
8) Hamilton/McCaffrey (prob our main weakness)
9) Youngs (form depending)
10) Burns
11) Betham
12) Toomua
13) Manu
14) JPP
15) Veainu

16) McGuigan
17) Genge
18) Logo/Cilliers
19) Fitz/Kitchener
20) Hamilton/McCaffrey
21) Harrison
22) Williams
23) Thompstone

For me 8 and Back 3 and we should be done filling any depth holes with academy products etc.

When I look at our 4-8 vs:

Saracens:

4.Itoje
5.Kruis
6. Rhodes
7. Burger
8. Vunipola

Wasps probably:

4. Myall (most underrated player in the league)
5. Launchbury
6. Haskell
7. Armitage
8. Hughes

or Saints:

4. Lawes
5. Day
6. Teiamana Harrison
7. Wood/Clark
8. Picamoles


Ours just aint going to cut it. It will be the same story next year unless we recruit well there

[TigerCam]

IMO the quality is already there and with the additions for next season even more so. To play open and loose at high tempo, which I believe is where Mauger want the Tigers to play, takes the 'buy-in' of the whole squad not just the match day 23. It needs the 'Sarries mentality' of being able to work as one unit no matter who is on the pitch, where everyone knows and is trusted in what to do given the circumstances. Gifting tries as the Tigers have done in games past (3 more on Saturday) is because of inaccuracy (too loose) exaerpated under pressure. It needs to be worked on and I'm sure Mauger will get it sorted. It is very easy to return to 'type' when under pressure because it the natural thing to do and that is when mistakes are made. The Tigers may not have a big ball carrier at 8 etc but if the forwards can execute good handling skills and push the gainline then space will open up for the quality of the Tigers backs to score.

[Noddy555]

Totally agree with Darganj and also the same positions. I have argued for the past two seasons that Tait is not up to the job of fullback as he does no longer have the athletic abilities needed for that position, I would have liked to try Tommy Bell more often in that position this season but sadly he is now leaving also Telusa Veianu made a good fist of it when he played in that position on three occasions. So what's the solution? We must try and get hold of a World class fullback as we haven't had one since Geordan Murphy retired. Thacker is good and will be a brilliant hooker but I'm afraid apart from Tom Youngs the other personnel covering this position have not stepped up to the mark.

[strawclearer]

Thacker is good and will be a brilliant hooker but I'm afraid apart from Tom Youngs the other personnel covering this position have not stepped up to the mark.

I thought that was why we signed new England Saxon, George McGuigan?

[LE18]

Bateman was not given enough opportunities, yes he got injured but he is solid, heavy enough to match other hookers and, as shown at Nottingham, he carries the ball very well!

[TopGun1972]

Of the starting XV on Saturday, I think some people are fantastic players and others are mainly squad players:

Prem and European Winners 1st XV quality:

Ayerza
Cole
Barrow (fantastic game - really impressed me and minimal pens)
O'Connor
Ben Youngs,
Manu Tuilagi,
Peter Betham
Telusa Veainu
Goneva

In between Prem and European Winners 1st XV quality and squad player:

Kitchener
Fitzgerald
McCafferey

Squad player:

Thacker
Tait
Owen Williams

Key issue for me was that our 2, 10 and 15 were squad players. Pretty crucial spine to the team and can't be compared to Brits/George, Farrell and Goode.

Of the Prem and European Winners 1st XV quality, we only lose Goneva next year. And we are up 1 overall, as JPP replaces Goneva and we get Toomua.
As I have said before the back 5 of the scrum is the issue and we need two very good players there, people of the calibre of Ben Morgan and Dom Barrow. I honestly think Slater is done for now, he can do a job during 6 nations etc but he doesn't have the quality. Similarly Kitchener is now 26 rising 27 and he hasn't hit the heights that we expected.

For me, our 2nd rows and number 8 are a weakness compared to Wasps, Sarries and Exeter. 2 signings there and we won't be far away next year.

Barrow? Wasn't this the same player giving away penalty after penalty in games previous to Saturday? Jury out for me at this stage but promising.

Ben Youngs no longer top level, people need to accept this.

Surprised McCaffrey doesn't get your vote at top level, the guy for me is not far short of our player of the season with Betham and Veainu

[tigerburnie]

When I look at our 4-8 vs:

Saracens:

4.Itoje
5.Kruis
6. Rhodes
7. Burger
8. Vunipola

Wasps probably:

4. Myall (most underrated player in the league)
5. Launchbury
6. Haskell
7. Armitage
8. Hughes

or Saints:

4. Lawes
5. Day
6. Teiamana Harrison
7. Wood/Clark
8. Picamoles


Ours just aint going to cut it. It will be the same story next year unless we recruit well there

Burgers retiring, Armitage hasn't signed and there's a few in these lists, that if they came to Tigers, would fall in the past it or journeyman category. Tigers have some key quality players coming in, I am expecting a better season next time round as the team grows into the new coaches style.

[bbfb10]

Guessing he means Schalk Burger, not Jacques.

[The Boy Dave]

The OP is harsh!
I've been very disappointed with some of the stuff I have seen this year especially in the forwards but only an idiot would not see that it's going to be strengthened.
Together with solid foundations they could potentially kick on to another level.
One chink in the armour will bring it all down though, IMO the Premiership is no place for mugs these days.
I await the new season with interest.
Some of the signings and the injuries to return are top quality.

[Gramps]

Mike Fitzgerald has been a great signing. He is a second row who can play 6 and has filled in admirably during Mike Williams admirably . Really want to see his partnership with Barrow develop next season, I'm afraid Slaters time has gone, but a back 5 of Barrow, Fitzgerald Williams O Conner and Hamilton offers set piece excellence along with dynamic ball carrying capability