Tigers v Sarries - Saturday 21st May at 12-30

[jgriffin]

Agree with that, Flashman. Just a note BTW the Sarries pitch is different to Falcons, not all artificial pitches are the same.
I told you so moment - two years ago I said Sarries would have an advantage, and cited Oldham Athletic as precedent. I still stand by that. We are all aware of playing at places with quirky pitches that gave the home side an extra edge, nothing different there then, it is no more than an edge although we are beginning to see a catalogue of the type of injuries predicted on these surfaces.

[Bristol Tiger]

In my opinion scrum half is pivotal as to how a team play, today we saw Ben hesitate, stand waving his arms whilst looking away from the ball at the base of the ruck etc, he then took several steps across the pitch allowing the Sarries cows horn to come around, when he did pass it was then a flat pass and the Sarries defence was up on the man putting pressure on and usually causing a knock on or loss of the ball whilst going backwards. There is a lot to say for Sam Harrison who gets the ball away from the base much quicker allowing the fly half time to make a decision as to what to do. Slow ball from Ben does not get down the line fast enough to our backs who can look brilliant, if they hang onto the ball, but going backwards just puts them under pressure and causes mistakes.

Do we need a scrum half coach, can't see Ben being selected by EJ, we also need a specialist skills coach, too many spilt balls!

Sorry to pick on him, he started well today but just lately it has been blatantly obvious to me he is not the player he was!

I'll bite! I actually think Ben Youngs played well (best scrum-half on the pitch) for 55 minutes. Then noticeably gave up and became a liability (he was soon replaced though so coaches decided a change needed clearly). There was one instance (that he needs to put right) where he (rightly) complained at the ref for a Saracens player lying on the ball, got nothing and then threw the interception pass for Wyles try. That's mental attitude (TCUP) not skills. Young was correct (and if Nigel Owens was reffing we would have had a lot more penalties!) but you can't let that impact your thinking at this level.

As for the crab ... if you watch him he has adjusted this season to be about 30-40% of the time crabbing and the rest making a pass (his long passing needs to improve though to be world-class). Rewatch the first 20 minutes and we had quick ruck ball. The crab is actually a good ploy, when used correctly as the defence aren't sure what to do. His two step crab, I'm looking to pass then dive through the gap was a major part in making that first "try". He also made several other line breaks in that way against the best defence in Europe - so why not use it, it works (when you are at the top of your game).

[TomWeston]

Agree with that, Flashman. Just a note BTW the Sarries pitch is different to Falcons, not all artificial pitches are the same.
I told you so moment - two years ago I said Sarries would have an advantage, and cited Oldham Athletic as precedent. I still stand by that. We are all aware of playing at places with quirky pitches that gave the home side an extra edge, nothing different there then, it is no more than an edge although we are beginning to see a catalogue of the type of injuries predicted on these surfaces.

Precisely. It will take a long time to rein in the advantage that the home team gets by playing on the same artificial pitch a minimum of 11 times each season.

[The Boy Dave]

I'm scratching my head at posts regarding the Sarries pitch.
Mauger came out and said regarding preparation on that type of surface "We did that last time and it didn't work. The key for us is nailing our performance. It doesn't really matter, the pitch is 100 metres long, 70 metres wide with goal posts at either end."
Someone is wrong!
The bottom line is that Tigers didn't perform to the level required for various reasons.
The main one IMO over the full season is the pack is able to be bullied, that's always going to make things difficult.
Tigers have controlled very few matches this season and when you don't have enough control then anything can happen.
It's all very well trying to play like the All Blacks but they control opposition first and then cut loose.
More disappointing was what appeared to be a lack of heart in some players.
Mistakes are being made year after year!
We have had a couple of years of constantly hearing about Waldrom, Gibson, Salvi, Parling and Co but what I would've given to have Mickey Young and Scott Steele yesterday!

[Hinckley Bob]

I was at Allianz Park yesterday and came away with 2 thoughts. One was that we were very careless in possession but under an awful lot of pressure. The other was that Saracens are the new Toulon, with Wasps not far behind, in that they are building a side of all rounders, forwards and backs with both pace and power. In contrast, I looked at our team with skilful but lightweight backs (Manu excepted) and pondering forwards (maybe a little harsh on some). Unless we are on top of our game, it will be very hard to compete on level terms with the mismatches.

[Soggypitch]

We were there yesterday and Tigers, as someone else has said won the second half.Truth is though our defence and game management was awful. I didn't expect to win but it is obvious that unless we had a full side out, (Sarries have had no injuries for the last few weeks)we wouldn't compete. In defence today we missed Thommo(I know he came on-but too late) and Matt Smith. Well done to Sarries, their fans were great, ground is good too and they have now well and truly replaced us as the team to beat. Tigers' board and coaching staff have to move on, be totally honest next season and stop the excuses. It would help too if we selected a fit team!!!!

I agree with this and also with Grumpy of Crumbie.
I was there yesterday and we were out played, out thought and out coached.
Looking at the two teams on paper I really thought we had a decent chance if we played well and did not give away silly tries. Well obviously we didn't play well for most of the game and did give away at least three very soft tries!!
Our tactics just did not work/were not executed properly.
But I'm not all doom and gloom, if we can improve next season with a better squad of players and avoid too many injuries then we can challenge Sarries and the other top European teams. But we need a much harder edge in the forwards and I still really worry about the centre positions, as I have unfortunately lost faith that Manu will ever be consistently fit.

As for Allianz Park I really enjoyed the whole experience, easy train journey to Mill Hill and convenient shuttle bus to the ground. A really good atmosphere in and around the ground, decent beer and no big queues for the bars or loos. The Sarries fans were chipper yes, but friendly, certainly no hostility, just good banter. The stewards were also great, not officious at all. It really reminded me of how Welford Rd used to be 20 years ago, but I suppose that's much easier with 10,000 or so fans rather than 20,000 or so. Anyway an enjoyable day despite the result!!

[MrPartridge]

Just a quick thought from someone who attended our 'away' matches at Sale, Racing, Bath and yesterday. Of course I don't like to criticise the team but giving up hard earned money and time (like so many others) sometimes makes you wonder if it is worth it. Those 4 games for me identified:

1. When we get it right (as we did at Saints we are a tough team to beat) BUT
2. There is a lack of a talismanic leader. Travelling Tigers fans yesterday seems more bothered. Have Tait, Youngs or Slater the right credentials especially when the chips are down?
3. Forget the Mauger attacking revolution, our defence is poor. Actually decent v Racing but not in those other 3 games I cite
4. Basic errors kill us: look again at Sale's tries, Croft's penalty v Racing, any number of 1st half incidents v Saracens
5. Our game management and execution are lacking. A bit more nouse and we'd have beaten Sale, Racing and Bath.

We seem to have gone backwards since the great win in Munster where 2/3/4 and 5 were spot on.

[MrPartridge]

As per my recent post, just checked the team that won in Munster in December compare to yesterday:

Only Tom Youngs unavailable yesterday. Centre partnership in Munster was Smith and Bai!! No Betham, Tait or Manu in Munster. Hmmm... discuss...

[Big Dai]

I thought our centre partnerships early season, Smith in particular played well. Despite big names missing, Manu included, we didn't do that badly and many on here were lauding Mauger as the "Transformer of Smith".

I'll be controversial but I'm not a Manu fan. I think we played as well without him early season because we had more than running into people as a game plan in the centres?

Talking with Posh Richard (Glaws), Albert the Osprey, Rob the Dragon and Barf Bob the offside line is now a joke as is clearing out. I've spoken earlier about refs just consistently applying the laws of the game. They pulled my leg (a bit), remember way back when, when the line out took place where the ball went out? Not with a 5m respite? Well there was this team that were very good at sneaking the ball back to little blonde fellow and scoring tries. The powers that be soon put a stop to that. Perhaps the powers that be can just take a look at the offside law? Or maybe just apply the existing one?

[jgriffin]

As per my recent post, just checked the team that won in Munster in December compare to yesterday:

Only Tom Youngs unavailable yesterday. Centre partnership in Munster was Smith and Bai!! No Betham, Tait or Manu in Munster. Hmmm... discuss...

All season I have thought our best centre combo was Smith and Betham. Manu notwithstanding, not changed that view.
If we had a whole season of a settled XV IMO it would've been hugely different.
IMHO the jury is out on Hansen. The defence was superior in the second half of last season most of the time despite the constant flux - perhaps less ambitious and a little too central, but less porous too.
Agree Dai about offside and breakdown - these are conversations I have had with Stains-in-laws and Chiefs bro.

[RagingBull]

Personally i am off the mind of waiting another season, IF the socreline in similar big games is the same then i feel we should look to make senior changes.

That my take personally.

This season our new recruits have all added something and unlike previous seasons alot of them would be in my first choice 23 ATM.

Genge is a done deal apparently which judging from yesterday is a big deal he was a beast.

I believe we have recruited well so far for next season:
McGuigan - I really like Thacker but you got to question his ability in the scrum V the big packs. McGuigan is bigger only 23 and prob more in the Youngs mold in terms of physicality around the pitch.
Cilliers - Adds an experience TH/LH option.
Hamilton - Again has looked very good in the top 14 despite in a struggling team a more physical McCaffrey.
Toomua - Covers 10/12 not as flashy as say Beale but is a brick wall in defence and certainly knows how to attack and is a good tactical kicker. (IMO could be key as we have missed the aggressive player esp when Manu is out).
JPP - Covers across the back line again isn't a flashy Goneva player, but is prob known as one of the best defensive wingers in world rugby and is no slouch in attack.
Brady - Experienced Premiership player despite being only 25, Mark Cueto player again a solid player with the ability to create stuff.

For me this season we added flair to the team next season we have been adding aggression into the team.

Hopefully the balance will be better, if not questions certainly do need to be answered. (I'm not complaining about losing to Sarries I mean Sarries at home is always going to be a tough ask no matter what the team ATM, just the manner of it).

[TigerCam]

Geeche's column in the Sunday TG sums it up nicely. Poor accuracy under pressure and lack of gain line success. The common traits of the season, however, the Tigers have finished the season in about the right place for the way they have played. The teams above them are more 'polished' but they have spend seasons building it. My glass remains half full.

[Gramps]

After their, European win Saracens were either going to be amazing or woeful. Unfortunately there was far more of the first and 10 minutes of the 2nd.
The obvious thing to was lack of leadership. Tait just cannot do it from fullback and Slater at best will be 4th choice lock next season.
On Tom Youngs return he needs to be made captain, with Tomua running the backs.
Next season will be the key in evolution, we should have pre season with all the new signings and obviously no World Cup.
I agree with Raging Bull about the quality of signings and them all being in the match day 23 in our strongest squad which for me would be :

Ayerza, Youngs, Cole, Barrow, Fitzgerald , Williams, O'Conner, Hamilton, Youngs, Burns, Pietersen, Tomua, Tuilagi, Betham, Vieanu. Bench - McGuigan, Genge, Cilliers, Kitchener, McCaffrey, Harrison, Williams, Brady.

With next seasons squad by Xmas we need to be topping our European pool and top 3 in the premiership for Cockers not to be looking for alternative employment

[TopGun1972]

Having attended yesterday's game at Allianz Park my thoughts are:

1) I think we have to give a huge congratulations to Saracens, best team won on the day. I can see very little weakness in both there attack and defensive, frighteningly good. They deserve both a bigger support and a better ground.

2) Tigers looked a tired team, but I thought Barrow,Betham,Veainu and McCaffrey all had good games.

3) Our pack like most of the season failed to dominate, have we seen the best of Marcus now?

4) If the first try had been allowed then the complextion of the game may have been different

5) We've seen some really good additions into the squad this year and some exciting ones for next,the future looks bright.

6) Williams had a shocker first half, enough said!

7) But I'm sorry, why oh why do people continue to defend Ben Youngs? Too slow at the breakdown and to distribute the ball,distribution is appalling and lost count how many times the ball has reached the throat and head area of the first receiver. Box kicking hasn't been up to scratch this season, the dummying is far too easy to pick out now. And the final nail for me yesterday was the lack of interest when the ball came out of the ruck leading to Chris Ashton's final try, he couldn't be less bothered if he tried. And then unlike most of the team he skulked off the pitch at full time, failed to applaud the travelling fans like a sulky school boy. Time for a change Imo.

I expect I will be shot down with some comments particularly about Youngs but we need a change of scrum half Imo if we're going to take this team to the next level.

[LE18]

Bristol Tiger, your defence of Ben Youngs is ill judged, TopGun has also hit the nail on the head regarding him! Did you watch the Exeter v Wasps game, both of their scrum halves must be ahead of Ben if EJ was watching, they both controlled their sides beautifully and never crabbed as you call it.

Owen Williams had a shocker, not helped by poor service, but not for the first time and Burns must be miles ahead of him.

Re Manu, is he really good for the team, he is injured so often and we scored more points after he went off?

Re our poor defence, now i'm being cynical but lots of posters have mentioned, as a defence of the player, how much JDV brought to the training ground whilst not playing, hope it was not his influence that caused it? Now to be a bit more controversial I heard a rumour that he was on miles more money than others have posted per month for a 6 month contract, i cannot prove it but it came from what I regard as a reliable source. But it would make it clearer to me as to why he and his family hung around so long!